SIXTH SESSION

THIRD SITTING		NORMAL		23, 24 AND 25 MARCH 1999

VOLUME 3

DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
KWAZULU(c)NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

SIXTH SESSION


THIRD SITTING (c) FIFTH SITTING DAY

TUESDAY, 23 MARCH 1999

THE HOUSE MET AT 10:05 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER,
PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE
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 PRAYER.


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THE SPEAKER:
  

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 2. X""
 OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS"

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 3. X""
 ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION"

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 4. X""
 ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER"

I have no announcements to make.

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 5. X""
 ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORTS BY THE PREMIER"

Hon the Premier.

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THE PREMIER:
  Mr Speaker, I have no announcements to make.

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THE SPEAKER:
  Thank you.

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 6. X""
 TABLING OF REPORTS AND/OR PAPERS"

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 7. X""
 NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS "

Hon Mr Waugh.

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MR J C N WAUGH:
  Mr Speaker, I give notice that at the next sitting I shall
move:

 X""
 that this House notes with horror the statements made by Winnie   !        """"""(c)(c)  
Madikizela(c)Mandela concerning alleged killings of white farmers by
other whites and noting no denials from leaders of the ANC."

 X""
 this House resolves that the ANC members in this House, produce
evidence of such atrocities or issue a denial thereof."

I thank you.

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HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!

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THE SPEAKER:
  Hon member Mr Haygarth.

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MR G HAYGARTH:
  Mr Speaker, I give notice that I will move on the next
sitting day:

 X""
 that this House note with concern the absence of the Chairman and
certain members from the meeting of the Portfolio Committee on Local
Government this morning and calls upon members to attend
assiduously to all of their duties."

I thank you.

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HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!

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THE SPEAKER:
  Any other motion?  Let us move on.

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 8. X""
 ORDERS OF THE DAY:"

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8.1 X""
 MOTION:
"


 X""
 Noting that:"

 X""
 The deteriorating relationship between the SAPS and the community
of Pomeroy which resulted in threats by the community that they will
not allow the SAPS to work with them, and that they will attack the
Police if they should go there until, in their words: "the last dead man
is picked up";"           ""
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 Believing that:"

 X""
 the matter is of urgent public importance and cannot be allowed to
continue;"

 X""
 This House Resolves, "

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 1. X

 to encourage the local SAPS management to continue their
efforts to normalize the situation; and


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  X""
 2. X

 that the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security should
play an active part in facilitating a speedy resolution to the
matter.



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THE SPEAKER:  
I hope that members do have the list of speakers.  I will now
call upon the hon member Mr B Cele, who has got 15 minutes to speak.  Thank
you.

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MR B H CELE:
  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Last week the ANC requested this
debate on a matter of public importance which, for some funny reason, was
refused by the Speaker.  Some of the reasons given were that the police
management had refused or had requested that the matter must not be debated
in this House.  It is quite outrageous that the police management can instruct
and tell this House what to do.

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AN HON MEMBER:
  Hear! Hear!

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MR B H CELE:
  We were also informed that specifically the Provincial
Commissioner, Chris Serfontein, also spoke with the Speaker, that this cannot
be debated since it would jeopardise the negotiations that are taking place
between the police and the communities.  It is really outrageous and questions
the independence of this House.  We ask the question how can the police
management tell the Speaker what to do and what not to do.  We want to see
exactly, and understand what happened here.  If this is the case, it cannot just
be left hanging.  It is one of the most serious events that has taken place since
this House came into being.
            ""
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!&&  ԌHaving said that, Mr Speaker, this debate which has been requested to debate
the serious concerns raised by the people of Pomeroy, that is Msinga, where
one respected member of that community made a statement over Radio Ukhozi,
and later said to some of us that they would never allow the police to come
and work in their area, if it need be, they will fight until the last man.  That is
a serious statement to be made by a certain community on how they will deal
with the police.  We had to act, and to us that was a matter of public
importance.

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MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):
  Mr Speaker, just on a point of order.

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THE SPEAKER:
  Yes, hon member.

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MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):
  I have just been listening to the hon member, and
I look at the motion before us.  I think it perhaps is incorrectly worded.  It does
say they will now allow SAPS, and I have heard the hon member say "will not
allow".  Could we just work out whether the motion is correctly worded as it
stands before us, otherwise it affects how members speak hereafter.  If you
would have a look at that motion.  In the third line it reads "that they will now
allow", that it should read "will not allow".  Perhaps the hon member could just
confirm that it should read that.

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MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Mr Speaker.

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THE SPEAKER:
  Hon member Mrs Cronje.

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MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  The hon Mr Edwards is quite correct.  There
is obviously a typing error which I unfortunately did not pick up.  The third line
of that motion should read: "that they will not allow the SAPS to work with
them" etcetera.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

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MR B H CELE:
  Thank you, Mr Speaker, and thanks to Mr Edwards.  "It will not
allow".  That was the concern.  Anyway, we would have been happy if the
community was to allow the police to come in and work, that would have
shown the good relationships.

This community takes this serious stand based on what happened there.  What            ""
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had happened there is that a farmer, a certain Mr van Zyl, was attacked and
killed.  It was his business to go around selling milk.  Then he had a problem
with some known thugs within the community.  The community had passed
this information on to the local police who were in the process of getting ready
to go and arrest those people.  But before they could do it, a certain group of
people, who the community initially thought were police, were seen around in
that particular area raiding that community.  Later it was established that it was
not the local police, but among them were some members of the Recces, that
is a reconnaissance group, that comes from the Province of Mpumalanga. 
Among them there was a private company known as Imbube under the
leadership of a certain Mr Stuart Lawson Cumming who is a former security
branch person.  Among them there was an hon member of this House, hon Mr
Philip Powell leading with the Recce people, raiding the people in the
community without the knowledge of the police.  This House has been around
the Province fighting this very same issue and that is that the special units of
the police cannot just jet in and jet out of communities and do the job without
even reporting it.  Here is a member of this House among these SANDF, that
does not come from this Province, with the private company raiding the
communities in the area.  That is their private army.

We are told that Mr Stewart is the head of this Imbube.  He is not alone, he
works with Mr Dave Durham who is a former member of this House and a
member of the IFP.  Mr Philip Powell we are told is one of the directors of this
particular Imbube company as well as a certain Mr Khumalo who is an IFP
councillor in this particular area.  They own the company.  If this is not a
private army, I wonder what it is.  We would then say these private companies
must be investigated, indeed we agree with the hon Premier, they must be
investigated, but in all directions left and right, up and down.  All of them must
be investigated.

As these special Recces were raiding the communities, what then happened
was that the official police came and attended to the problem, and I quote from
the complaint written by a senior policeman: 

 X""
 I told them that I consider their presence that a certain Mr Williams,
that is Stewart Lawson and Mr Philip Powell who has identified
himself as a member of the Provincial Secretariat of Safety and           ""
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Security in KwaZulu(c)Natal."

That is his own identification on that day to the particular police.  And the
policeman continues:

 X""
 I told them that I consider their presence in the area to be a gross
interference in the investigation I was busy with.  I also asked them
on whose authority were they acting, and if they had reported to the
local station commissioner their presence in the area.  Mr Philip Powell
then demanded to know who I was to question his authority, and if I
knew anything about the Constitution.  He also mentioned to me that
he had been in the South African Police for five years and must not try
to tell him what he can and cannot do."

This police Mr Powell talks about is the police that De Kock spoke about in his
court evidence.  When he goes on to say:

 USAF  X""
 ...vir veiligheid geskuil het en daar was onder andere Stuart Cumming,
Jac Buchner en dan ook Philip Powell en het ons toe maar die normale
vleis gebraai en gesuip. AFUK "

Which means he had been introduced by a leader of the security branch,
introduced by Stewart Cumming who by the way is the head now, to Jan
Buchner and Philip Powell.  But he had asked if he can trust him and finally
said: "Ek kan hom vertrou".  It means yes, you can trust him.  These are the
police that he talks about that he has been a member of.

The raid did not take place during the day, it took place at night.  When he was
asked what he was doing there, he answered that he had been called by the
Indunas to come and negotiate between the IFP communities and the police. 
He usually goes around with Baba Ntombela when he deals with IFP matters. 
He was not present.  There is a very prominent member of the IFP in the area
uBaba Nyambose who was not present, even further the councillor of the IFP,
Mr Samuel Mkhize was very upset by his presence because he did not know
he was in that area.  On what mission was he there?

Can the IFP tell us?  Can the IFP tell us on what mission was he there?  Was            ""
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he there on a mission with his old friends Buchner, Stewart, Lawson and
himself, Cumming and De Kock, or was he there on a mission to make peace
that we are all talking about here?  This is the same gentleman, this hon
member Philip, who after the ANC and IFP had decided to make peace and
jointly instructed the hon Mr Ndebele and the hon Mrs Gasa to come with a
joint code of conduct.  He came with his own separate mission away from the
mainstream one which had scuppered the discussion and the peace process in
this Province.  We are asking, whose mission is he on?  What does the IFP
leadership say?  What is the IFP leadership doing about a person who is clearly
out to destroy whatever peace we are all working on?  What is the story here? 
Can we be told?  Can it be explained what is the story; what is happening
here?

So we will say, this investigation must go on.  We know that a certain
policeman, a very senior policeman, has been given the job to investigate this
matter of gross interference and this South African Police member has
complained that the matter is too hot to handle.  He is a senior superintendent
himself.  He has complained that the matter is too hot to handle.  He has even
taken it to the Senior Commissioner Truter.  He has given it to Commissioner
Truter to handle.  Why are even the senior superintendents so scared of the
gentleman?  Who is this gentleman and who is he working for?  Why?  Can
somebody find out and let us know what the story is and what is happening
here.

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THE SPEAKER:
  The hon member is left with two minutes to wind up.

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MR B H CELE:
  Two minutes to wind up is to find out whether we will ever
make peace with such people who are clearly on their own mission, who are
clearly not in the mainstream of the politics that we are all talking about here,
who are clearly not only running their own private companies, raiding the
communities when they sleep at night, who are running the Recces, even
running the SANDF that come from other provinces, who can tell the senior
superintendent and the police in this Province to go to hell and to take the
shortest possible route and never come back.  Who is this powerful gentleman? 
We would like to get answers.

I thank you Mr Speaker, sir.   
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HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!

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THE SPEAKER:
  I now call upon hon member Mr T D Ntombela, who has got
seven minutes to speak.

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MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip): 
 Angibonge Sihlalo, Somlomo Baba.  Engicabanga
ukuthi okokuqala angixolisele u(c)Phillip Powell kunomhlangano ophuthumayo
omele ukhetho ka(c)IEC eThekwini, ngabe ukhona la.  Omunye angakuthathi
ngokuthi ngoba kunale(c)motion eqondiswe kuyena ngqo ukuthi ubalekile,
akabalekile.

Ngicabanga ukuthi Baba Somlomo, sesizwile umsindo oqhamuka ngale kumfaki
wale(c)motion uBheki Cele.  Siyamuzwa ukuthi impela ukuthi uyakhuluma,
uyamemeza.  Ngicabanga ukuthi nezintaba zasePomeroy ziyezwa njengoba
ememeza nje.

Kuliqiniso ukuthi kulempelasonto Baba Somlomo, neNdlu yakho ehloniphekile
bekuwusuku kuyisonto lamalungelo esizwe.  Futhi kuyiqiniso nakulabo abafuna
ukuhlukumeza abanye abantu kungamalungelo abo.

Bekuyisonto lamalungelo abo ukuba bakwazi ukuthi baphumelele, bakwazi
ukungcofa abanye abantu, njengoba enza nje umfowethu laphaya uBheki Cele
ilungelo lakhe lelo lokuthi ahlasele uMnumzane Powell ngento engekho.

Somlomo, okokuqala ngiyasigxeka isenzo sokuba amaphoyisa namasosha
baphume umkhankaso wokuhlukumeza abantu ePomeroy.  Njengomuntu
omdala angisoze ngakuvuma ukuthi kubekhona amaphoyisa ahambayo
ayohlukumeza abantu ePomeroy.

Futhi ngiyakugxeka ukubulawa kwabantu njengo(c)van Zyl lona owabulawa
eyodayisa ubisi, ngiyakugxeka lokho.  Kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi kufuneka
ukuthi ngikusho lokhu Baba Somlomo, ukuthi loludaba okungixaka kakhulu
ukuthi njengoba uzakwethu lapha njengoba ekhuluma nje uBheki Cele unolwazi
oluphelele emqondweni wakhe ukuthi sekunesikhathi esingakanani mina naye
ne(c)sub(c)committee yakwa(c)Safety and Security siya eMsinga siyokhuluma
ngokunukubezwa kwabantu, benukubezwa amaphoyisa namasosha.           ""
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!&&Ԍ(tm)Behlukunyezwa kubulawa abantu, kubulawa imizi yabantu, kuthathwa izimali
zabantu ngamasosha.  Okungewona endawo, namaphoyisa okungewona
endawo, kuyiqiniso umfowethu uBheki Cele uyakwazi lokho.

Ngixakwa ukuthi uma kuliqiniso lokhu okushiwo umfana wami lapha uBheki
kudalwe yini ukuthi angathi njengoba enguSihlalo yena we(c)Safety and Security
atshele ikomiti ukuthi akuhanjwe kuyiwe eMsinga kuyobhekwa lomkhuhlane
okuthiwa wenziwa amaphoyisa namasosha eMsinga.

Kwenziwe yini lokhu akuthathe athi akuze la kuzokhulunywa la ePhalamende. 
Inhloso yalokho akukona ukudayisa ukuthi bangcolise uMnumzane Powell. 
Akulona yini iqiniso ukuthi uMnumzane uBheki nombimbi lwakhe baqonde
ukungcolisa iqembu le(c)IFP.

Ngimzwile uma ekhuluma uBheki Cele ngithola ukudumala okukhulu kakhulu
uma ezothatha umsebenzi ka(c)Phillip Powell lo eyilunga lePhalamende,
okungumsebenzi wakhe ukuthi lapho kufe khona nomangabe ubani
kungumsebenzi wakhe ukuthi aye khona.  Njengoba naye eya kuBheki.

Uzokhumbula uBheki kubulawe abantu eZingolweni uye ngaphandle kokuthi
athinte uMhlonishwa, u(c)Minister Inkosi uNgubane okungumsebenzi wakhe
ukuthi azi uma kufa abantu endaweni.  Waya lapho ngaphandle kokumthinta.

U(c)Phillip Powell angazi ukuthi imigomo unemigomo yokuthi yena eyilunga
lePhalamende uma kubulawa ilunga noma umuntu ePomeroy kufanele angayi
yini lapho na?

Baba Somlomo, neNdlu yakho ehloniphekile angikubeke ukuthi u(c)Phillip Powell
waya lapha njengesikhundla sakhe sokuba lapho kubulawe khona abantu aye. 
Futhi kungumsebenzi wakhe ukuthi ayodala ukuthula kuleyondawo.

Angisho namhlanje Baba Somlomo, neNdlu yakho ehloniphekile ukuthi abantu
basePomeroy...

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THE SPEAKER:
  Ilunga lisalelwe amaminithi amabili.  [The member has two
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MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip):
  Abantu basePomeroy, neNkosi yasePomeroy,
neZinduna zasePomeroy ziyayidinga le(c)sub(c)committee ukuthi iye khona.

Ngicela uma siphuma kulendlu silunqume usuku lokuthi siya nini kulelisonto,
ikomiti liye laphaya.  Khona kuzotholakala amaqiniso lawa akhulunywa u(c)Phillip
Powell ukuthi azovela yini laphaya kubantu.  Ngoba u(c)Phillip Powell umsulwa
kuloludaba.  Kodwa indlela abakaKhongolose abafisa ukuthi bangcofe ngayo uPhillip Powell.

Ngiyakunxusake Magaye ukuthi siphuma la kufuneka sithinte Inkosi yakhona,
neZinduna, nomphakathi wakhona ohlukumezekile ukuthi bayosho ukuthi
wabamba liphi iqhaza u(c)Phillip Powell ngesikhathi elapho, engazange asondele
kwakusondela kuleyondawo okwakwenzeke yona.  Ngiyathokoza.

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TRANSLATION:  
Let me say thank you, Mr Speaker.  I think I should firstly
apologise on behalf of Philip Powell.  There is an urgent meeting regarding
elections at the IEC in Durban.  If it were not for that he would be here.  Noone should assume that he has run away because of this motion directed at
him.  He has not run away.

I think, Mr Speaker, we have heard the noise emanating from the presenter of
this motion, Bheki Cele.  We can definitely hear him speaking.  He is shouting. 
I think even the hills of Pomeroy can hear as he is shouting.  

It is true that this weekend, Mr Speaker and your hon House, was Human
Rights Day, Human Rights Week for the Nation.  It is also true, even for those
who abuse other people, it is their right. 

It was Human Rights Week for them too, so that they can succeed in defiling
other people, as my brother Bheki Cele over there is doing.  It is his right to
attack Mr Powell about something that is not even real.

Mr Speaker, firstly, I condemn the action of the police and soldiers who went
out on a campaign of harassing people.  As an adult, I would never accept that
maybe police would go out and harass people at Pomeroy.  

I also condemn the killing of people such as Van Zyl, the one who was killed   
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while going to sell milk.  I condemn that.  But I think I should say this, Mr
Speaker, what baffles me a great deal about this matter is that, as my
colleague, Bheki Cele speaks, he has full knowledge in his mind about the
length of time that himself, myself and the sub(c)Committee on Safety and
Security have been going to Msinga to discuss the harassment of people by the
police and soldiers.  

They have been harassed, people who are being killed, their houses destroyed,
their money taken away by the soldiers and police who are not from that area. 
That is true, and my brother Bheki Cele knows that.

What baffles me is, if what my brother Bheki Cele here is saying is true, why
is it that he, as Chairman of the Committee on Safety and Security, does not
tell the Committee to go to Msinga and examine the sickness that is said to be
caused by police and soldiers there.  

Why did he take it and bring it to Parliament for discussion?  Isn't the objective
of that to sell the slandering of Mr Powell?  Is it not a fact that Mr Bheki and
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 his conspirators

 want to slander the IFP organisation?  

I heard Bheki Cele speaking.  I am greatly disappointed that he takes Philip
Powell's duty as a member of Parliament this way.  It is his duty to go
wherever anyone has died, as Bheki Cele also goes.  Bheki Cele will remember
that when people were killed at Izingolweni, he went there without contacting
the hon Minister Inkosi Ngubane, whose duty it is to know when people die in
an area.  He went there without contacting him.  I do not know whether there
is a policy that Philip Powell, as a member of Parliament, should not go when
a white person, or a black person is killed in Pomeroy.  Should he not go there?

Mr Speaker and your hon House, let me state that Philip Powell went there in
his capacity that permits him to go where people have been killed, and it is his
duty to go and create peace in that area.  Let me state, Mr Speaker and your
hon House, that the people of Pomeroy ...

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The people of Pomeroy, the Inkosi of Pomeroy and the Induna of Pomeroy,
need this sub(c)Committee to go there.  I ask that when we leave this House, we
should decide on the date this week on which we, the Committee, will go   
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there, so that the truth can come out about what is being said about Philip
Powell.  To see whether that will come from the people there, because Philip
Powell is innocent in this matter.  But this is just the opportunity that the
African National Congress wants to use to slander Philip Powell.  

I plead with you, Magaya, that when we leave here, we have to contact the
Inkosi of that area, its Induna and the community that was harassed, so that
they can say which role Philip Powell played when he was there.  He did not
even get close to the area where that happened.  I am pleased.  T/E
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HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!

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THE SPEAKER:
  Siyabonga.  Order please!  Siyabonga kakhulu. [Thank you very
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 much].  I will now call upon the hon member Mr Haygarth, who has got four
minutes to speak.

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HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!

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MR G HAYGARTH:
  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, it is quite clear that
the New National Party supports the creation of peace in all of the areas of
KwaZulu(c)Natal.  As a member of the sub(c)committee that visited Msinga not so
long ago, it is quite clear that in that area, and in many other areas of the
Province there is a very great need for the SAPS, and the military services to
be very careful of their handling of situations in these areas.  I am aware that
the Provincial Commissioner of the SAPS has had meetings with the leaders of
the military in this Province, and has been critical of the role which they have
played in some of these areas without working with the police.  It is quite clear
that something needs to be done.

The Portfolio Committee, when they visited these areas, found, I think, that this
conflict is mainly political, and it is very difficult for the Portfolio Committee
with its differences of opinion to come to a genuine arbitrational situation
where it can help solve the matters permanently.

What I believe is necessary, is that while we note that the matter is of public
importance, and cannot be allowed to continue, this House should resolve
rather another method of settling this issue.  It is something which the National   
        ""
!
!&&  
Party has submitted for several years, saying that there is only one way, and
that is by means of an independent commission of inquiry which can hear all
the parties who are involved in these disputes.  The two major political parties,
let them come forward, all of this evidence should be given, and the police and
the military should be there, and it should be for a judicial officer who reflects
the independence of his office, who should be the party concerned to resolve
the matter.

Feelings in the community run very deep, and simply to have the political
elements of the Safety and Security Committee, and the police elements of the
SAPS, and management to try and solve the problem is not going to advance
the cause of peace in this Province.  It is our considered view, we have shown
our view not only in calling for commissions of inquiry, we have provided draft
legislation to assist in this matter.  Regrettably it has sat around going through
various motions for whatever reason, and it has not come to fruition.  But we
sincerely believe that the manner of solution that is recommended here is not
one which is going to take us any further.


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  The hon member is left with one minute to wind up.


  o F 
 
MR G HAYGARTH:
  We have seen from time to time the conflict situation
which arises in meetings between these political parties.  It becomes very
difficult, and I can talk of experience of the Richmond Sub(c)committee, of trying
to find resolution of these matters on a political basis.  It is too sensitive. 
Therefore, this party stands by its previously held views, that the solution here
is a commission of inquiry, and they ask that this House give full support to
that avenue.  Thank you very much.


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Thank you.  I would like to advise members that the list of
speakers has been amended, as agreed to by the Whips.  I will now call upon
the hon member Mr J Jeffery, who has got 12 minutes to speak.


  o F @
 
MR J H JEFFERY:
  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, there are three
elements of this incident that I want to highlight as being of considerable
concern.  The first is the alleged involvement of vigilantes in our Province.  The
second is the alleged involvement of a member of this House, a person who the
Saturday Independent refers to as a top MP in this incident.  The third is the   
        ""
!
!&&  
community reaction which is embodied in the motion.  Those I believe are the
key elements which are of concern to us in this House.

As far as the first element, the involvement of alleged vigilantes, I want to also
put the concern in the context of the fact that we will be going to the polls in
just over two months time.  In 1994 this Province was on the brink of a major
conflict which would have prevented, and we believe did have a major
significant impact on preventing a free and fair election.  There were private
armies, there were training camps and there were weapons galore roaming
around.


  o F 	
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F z

 
MR J H JEFFERY:
  Many of those issues still have not been resolved.  This
House recently has seen the accusations and the allegations from Eugene de
Kock resurfacing, and the police still say quite honestly that they do not know
where those six truck loads of weapons are that were delivered to the hon Mr
Powell in Ulundi.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Order, hon member Inkosi Mathaba.


  o F N
 
MR J H JEFFERY:
  So we have got the problem of that heritage still not being
resolved, and not being addressed.  We have now got a situation that just
before the 1999 elections we suddenly find white right wing vigilantes
operating in the Province again.  Those elements are of quite a concern.  The
involvement of the brother of the deceased farmer, the farmer who was
murdered, Mr Piet van Zyl.  He allegedly, as far as I understand, had an arms
cache found on his property shortly before the 1994 elections.  That arms
cache contained a number of weapons and mortars and things like that.

That is of concern, but what is Mr van Zyl's involvement with the right wing
organisations?  


  o F -
 

Then there is the question of who were these vigilantes?  It appears that there
was a Lieutenant Greyling, apparently linked to Group 9 SANDF Wakkerstroom   
        ""
!
!&&  
Commando in Mpumalanga.  What were they doing in the middle of KwaZuluNatal, in Pomeroy?  There were policemen, a Constable Lushaba, a Constable
Yende and a Constable Ngwenya who gave their names and showed their old
appointment certificates.  They are apparently from Mpumalanga.  What were
they doing here?  There were a number of vehicles that were used which,
according to the press, one belonged to Imbube Security, one belonged to a
person in Durban, and the other two seemed to have false number plates. 
What were those vehicles doing there?

It is of concern that there appears to be right wing vigilantes operating in our
Province at a time before the elections.  What is their business here?  If
Commandos have to be involved, why can they not be Commandos from
KwaZulu(c)Natal?  If the police are involved, why not the police from KwaZuluNatal?  That is of major concern.  One does not want to remember the
Bophuthatswana experience where suddenly before the 1994 elections you had
right wing Commandos going into Bophuthatswana and causing chaos there.

The hon Mr Cele has raised the question of Imbube Security, but what is their
role?  He has raised the question of Mr Cummings, the head of Imbube Security
and the quotes from what Eugene de Kock has said in evidence under oath. 
What is Imbube Security doing?  We have also heard reports that members of
Imbube Security abducted a person and assaulted him, and took him to an IFP
meeting.  So that is a further question.  What is the role of Imbube Security in
the area?  Is it a force for peace or for stability, or is it a force for instability and
disruption?

As far as the alleged involvement of Mr Powell.  This is an issue which is now
being spread all over the papers.  This is the Independent on Saturday, main
headline, "Top MP is vigilante raid pro", and there is a picture of hon Powell.


  o F |
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Order!  Order!  Hon member Inkosi Mathaba.


  o F @
 
INKOSI K W MATHABA:
  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to know from
the hon member whether he can take a question?


  o F -
 
MR J H JEFFERY:
  I will take a question at the end if I have got time.
            ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
INKOSI K W MATHABA:
  You are scared.  


  o F 
 
MR J H JEFFERY:
  It is the question of Mr Powell's involvement in this, and the
impact it is having on our reputation as members of this House, that it is a
fellow member of the House that is involved.

The allegations made by the police of Mr Powell throwing his weight around ...


  o F 

 
MS M XULU:
 
(Whip):
  INTERJECTION


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Order, hon member Ms Xulu please.


  o F 

 
MR J H JEFFERY:
  Of Mr Powell throwing his weight around, threatening the
police with do they know the Constitution.  The Independent on Saturday, in
its editorial, complains that Mr Powell implicitly threatened our reporter, and
which they go on to say:

 X""
 We challenge Powell to state publicly what he means when he says
he has been watching our reporter, and we call on his organisation,
that is the IFP, to clarify where it stands on the issue."

That is something coming from the editorial of the newspaper.

Mr Powell is the Chair of the IFP study group on Safety and Security.  That is
the Chair of the study group of the majority party.  The hon Premier earlier
during this session spoke about the fact that in view of the allegations against
another hon member of this House, Dr Mkhize, that he was duty bound to
appoint a commission.  Now why is the Premier not duty bound to investigate
this matter?


  o F |
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F @
 
MR J H JEFFERY:
  What can be more damning to us in this House than these
kinds of headlines about a person who indisputably is a senior member of this
House, and a person who may well be tipped, given the IFP's moves to try and
replace Mr Cele as Chair of the Committee, may be the person that they are
trying to get to be the Chair of the Safety and Security Committee.  These           ""
!
!&&  
matters need to be investigated.

The other issue of concern is, this incident happened on 22 February 1999,
what is the police report on the matter?  Why have the police been trying to
delay this debate in the House?  They have had ample time.  Well, it is in fact
over two months since this incident happened.  Why is this matter being
investigated by Senior Superintendent Delport from Pietermaritzburg?  This
incident happened in the Newcastle area.  Why is it being investigated by the
head of CID in Pietermaritzburg?  Why is it not being investigated by somebody
from Newcastle or failing that, then somebody from the Province?  Those are
the questions that we need to look at.

The last issue is the question of the community outrage.  With respect to my
hon colleague Mr Ntombela, I do not think he has addressed the actual
problems here, which are not problems of our police or our army.  It is a
problem of a Commando from Mpumalanga, which we do not know what its
connection is with this Province.  It is a problem with police or people claiming
to be police from Mpumalanga going into the area.  What are they actually
doing here?  The police report, and it is quoted in the Independent on Saturday:

 X""
 That it envisaged that the suspects will be more difficult to trace and
to gather the necessary evidence to obtain a conviction in court at this
stage if no fingerprints are found on the said weapons.  Even if they
are connected to the scene of crime, how are the weapons possibly
going to be connected to any of the accused when eventually
arrested?"

What we have found is that a murder has taken place, the murder of a farmer,
a serious matter.  The police have information that they want to follow up as
to who the suspects are.  Before they can actually get involved and go and
arrest the suspects, the cowboys come in.  These Commandos from
Wakkerstroom, these alleged policemen, Imbube Security, Mr Powell come in,
and they go around breaking doors, the types of things that Mr Ntombela
complained about.  Eventually they found some weapons.  The manner in
which they have investigated it has meant that okay, they have got some
weapons, but nobody is likely to be prosecuted.  Those are the concerns that
the police are raising in their memorandum on the matter, that because the           ""
!
!&&  
cowboys came in, it is unlikely that people will be convicted for the murder of
the farmer, which is something that should be happening.

Mr Speaker, those are the concerns I want to raise.  I think those are the key
issues that we have got to address.  We need to look at taking effective action
to stop the operation of vigilante groups in this Province.


  o F .
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 

 
MR J H JEFFERY:
  We need to take effective action to stop the supply of
weapons.  


  o F 

 
THE SPEAKER:
  The hon member is left with two minutes to wind up.


  o F \

 
MR J H JEFFERY:
  We need to investigate the involvement of right wing
elements who have played a destabilising role in the past in this Province and
are continuing to play that role.  We need to look very closely at the role played
by a member of this House, because of the bad publicity it is giving to this
House.  I would challenge the hon Premier, that if he is to be open and fair, that
he would actually look at having this matter investigated by a commission of
inquiry.


  o F l
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 0
 
MR J H JEFFERY:
  If he is going to use those arguments against Dr Mkhize,
that he is honour bound or duty bound, I cannot remember the words.

Lastly, we need to address the community's concerns about action in their
area, because what the vigilante group has done, has effectively damaged the
name of the police and the army in the Pomeroy area.

Mr Speaker, those are the steps that I believe we need to urgently address. 
Thank you.  I can take Inkosi Mathaba's question, if I have still got time.


  o F -
 
THE SPEAKER:
  The hon member Inkosi Mathaba.  You still have a minute.  He
can ask the question.
            ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
INKOSI K W MATHABA:
  No, I just wanted to ask the question from the hon
member Jabulani Jeffery, whether he knows about the activities of McBride? 
Can he tell this House about the activities of McBride.


  o F 
 
MR J H JEFFERY:
  Mr Speaker, I could probably tell the hon member about the
"cup of sets".  [LAUGHTER]  But I cannot say anything.  I do not know
anything about the activities of Mr McBride.  I can say that openly and
honestly.  I am not sure of the relevance of the question, because the question
of Mr McBride has nothing to do with this motion.  I think that the hon member
is trying to throw red herrings, and I hope that he has been able to replace his
"cup of sets".  [LAUGHTER]


  o F 

 
THE SPEAKER:
  Let us move on.  As I have said that the list of speakers has
been amended, as agreed to by the Whips.  I will now call upon the hon
Minister C J Mtetwa, who has got six minutes to speak.


  o F  

 


REV C J MTETWA: (Minister of Public Works):
  

Somlomo Baba, neNdlu
ehloniphekile, ngeke ngisho ukuthi ngiyathokoza ukuthola ithuba lokukhuluma
uma ngizokhuluma ngento efana nale.

Nokho ngiyafisa ukusho ukuthi Mkhandlu ohloniphekile udaba esikhuluma ngalo,
kukhulunywa ngodaba lwaseMsinga kithi ekhaya.  Njengoba kukhulunywa
ngaloludaba okukhulunywa ngalo nje, kukhulunywa ngokufa kwabantu. 
Manjeke kuyahlupha uma sikhuluma kungene namapolitiki ethu phakathi ngoba
kugcina udaba lungaseyilona lolu okufanele ukuba silubheke ngaleyondlela
esifanele ukuba siqondane nalo ngayo.

Lubuyisa imibuzo buzo eminingi esikhweshana ngayo.  Yebo iqiniso uMnumzane
Powell uyilunga le(c)IFP kodwa angiboni ukuthi uma sikhuluma udaba noma
sikhuluma izenzo zakhe kufanele ukuba kubuyisele ukuthi akwenzayo i(c)IFP.

Kahlenini ngingaqale nithi woh.  Uyabona nje ubekhona uMagaye la
bekukhuluma khona uMama ohloniphekile ngeze ngasho ukuthi ngoba
benikhona bekukhuluma i(c)ANC uma ethi "Ukubulawa kwabamhlophe...


  o F -
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  ANC.
            ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
REV C J MTETWA: (Minister of Public Works):
  Niyakuvuma lokho? [Do you

  o F  
 accept that]?
 

  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Yebo i(c)ANC.  [Yes it is the ANC].


  o F j
 
REV C J MTETWA:
 
(Minister of Public Works):
  Niyakuvuma?  Uqinisile?  Awu!
ayi asiyibeke eceleni inesithuba sayo.

La udaba okukhulunywa ngalo lolu olwakhalisa iKhansela uMkhize njengoba
eseshilo amalunga e(c)Portfolio committee e(c)Security lapha KwaZulu(c)Natali
iqiniso.  Uma singakhuluma ngabantu baseMsinga asebebulewe amaphoyisa
ihlazo.

UCele wayengakazalwa kuqalwa lento befa abantu, seze wazalwa, seze
wampunga.  Sasithi ngaphambili kwenza ngoba kusewuHulumeni wamaBhunu.

Siphatheka kabi kakhulu namhlanje uma sekuwuHulumeni wakithi kusenzeka
yona leyonto.  Njengoba yaya i(c)Portfolio Committee eMsinga, izikhathi esayo
ngazo ziningana.

Kodwa kuze kube namhlanje nangu uMadondo yithina sobabili abaseMsinga la
ayikaze isicele le(c)Portfolio Committee ukuba sizoyisiza sihlale nayo phansi
siyinikeze ukuthi yini eyenzakalayo.

Ngikholwa ukuthi abantu baseMsinga babekezele ngokwenele.  Bekungafanele
ukuba kwethuse lokhu okwakushiwo uKhansela uMkhize noma ayethetha. 
Ngimbonile uMkhize ngambuza ukuthi wayethini, wangichazela ukuthi
ukukhulume lokho kulentatheli wayethetha.  Ngezizathu zokuthi sebenze konke
abantu baseMsinga ukubika kuHulumeni ngezinto ezenzakalayo, zenzeka
ngendlela elihlazo kakhulu.

Ngo(c)1995 kuhlaselwe umuzi kaMuntu onotshwala Zulu lapha e(c)Keats Drift,
kwadutshulwa abafana bakhe babulawa amasosha bafa bobabili. Wabaleka
waze wayofika emaphoyiseni wabuya esebuya namaphoyisa afika amasosha
amthatha emaphoyiseni amgxoba aze amthwala wona amusa esibhedlela. 
Udaba lusenkantolo nanamhlanje lelocala aluzwakali ukuthi luthini.
            ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
THE SPEAKER:
  UMhlonishwa usesele nemithi, goqa Mhlonishwa.  [The hon

  o F  
 member is left with one minute.  Please wrap up].


  o F 
 
REV C J MTETWA: (Minister of Public Works):
  Ewu, angisazi Somlomo, ngoba
phela bekwaziwa ukuthi kukhulunywa ngodaba lwaseMsinga uma nginikwa usix minutes ukuthi bengiqonde ukukhuluma ngeyini?

Angikwazi ukuphikisa kodwake ngiyacela ukuba kubhalwe ukuthi nalile ukuba
ngikhulume.  Ngivalelwe okuningike ebengizonisiza kukho ngoba kwezinye
izindawo niyaduka.  Ngenzenjani Somlomo?  [UHLEKO]


  o F 	
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Ngebhadi elikhulu Mhlonishwa ibona omosotswibhi ibona

  o F 

 abahlela amaminithi, nababa amaminithi okukhuluma.  [Unfortunately, hon
member, the Whips are the ones who organise and allocate minutes for
speakers].


  o F  

 
REV C J MTETWA: (Minister of Public Works):
  Alright anginivalelise ngokuthi
phathani loludaba njengodaba olubaluleke kakhulu oluthinta umphakathi,
umphakathi futhi osuhlukumezeke kakhulu.

Kuningi obekufanele ukuba ngikusho ngiyabopheka, kodwa engizogcina ngakho
ukuthi kulaba be(c)Portfolio Committee ngizwe uMnumzane u(c)Haygarth laphaya
ethi uma beya laphaya bake bathole ukungqubuzana kwamaqembu yonke lento
ngahlupheka nje.

Ngizonisiza ngokuthi sizawukuthi emva kwalezinkulumo sihlangane
noMnumzane Madondo sinilungisele yonke into elaphaya eMsinga ukuze
lezindaba zenu zikhulunywe kahle, nikhulume zona ngempela ezihlupha abantu
baseMsinga.

Phela bengicelile ukuthi kuthi ukwengeza bakithi.  Indlu ivumile Somlomo.


  o F @
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Besengezile Mhlonishwa cishe ngeminithi ngaphezulu.  [

Hon
member, I added about a minute].


  o F -
 




REV C J MTETWA:
 
(Minister of Public Works):
  Wothanini elethu. [Shout in

  o F 
 agreement].            ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
TRANSLATION:  


Mr Speaker and the hon House, I would not say I am pleased
for getting the opportunity to speak if I am to speak about such a matter.  

But then, I wish to say, hon Council, that the issue we are discussing is an
issue about my home area of Msinga.  The discussion on this matter is a
discussion about the death of people.  Now, it is a problem that when we
discuss such an issue, our personal politics come into it because at the end the
issue becomes distorted and we are unable to address it in an appropriate
manner.  

It raises a number of questions we pose to one another.  Yes, it is true, Mr
Powell is an IFP member, but I do not believe that when we discuss the issue
of his actions we should say what he does is done by the IFP.  

Wait, do not stop me yet.  You see, Magaya was present when the hon madam
was speaking, but he would not say that just because you were there, it was
the ANC expressing itself.  When she said the killing of whites ...


  o F 
 



You accept that?  Are you telling the truth?  Let us set that aside, there would
be time for it.  Here, the issue being discussed is the issue that Councillor
Mkhize was complaining about as members of the Portfolio Committee on
Security here in KwaZulu(c)Natal have stated.  It is true, if we can talk about the
people of Msinga who have been killed by police, it is a disgrace.  

Cele was not even born when this thing started and people were dying.  He
was born and he is now grey.  It continues.  Before, we used to say it was
because of the Boer Government.  

It saddens us a great deal today because it is our Government and yet, this
thing still happens.  As the Portfolio Committee went to Msinga, it went there
a number of times.  

Madondo and I are the two people here from Msinga, but up to today, the
Portfolio Committee has never asked us for help by sitting down with it and
explaining what is taking place there.  I believe that the people of Msinga have
been patient enough.
            ""
!
!&&  ԌWhat Councillor Mkhize was saying should not have come as a shock, although
he was speaking angrily.  I saw Mkhize and asked him what he was saying. 
He explained to me that when he spoke to the reporter, he spoke angrily,
because the people of Msinga have done everything to report to the
government about the things that are taking place, taking place in an extremely
disgraceful way.

In 1995 Muntu Onotshwala Zulu's house was attacked over there at Keats
Drift.  His two boys were shot and killed by soldiers.  He ran all the way to the
police.  He returned with the police and the soldiers took him from the police,
trampled on him and took him to hospital.  The issue is in court and up until
today it is unclear what the case means.


  o F z

 



Oh, I am confused, Speaker, because it was known that we were to discuss
the issue of Msinga.  Now when I was given six minutes, were you all aiming
to be the ones to speak?  I cannot oppose, but I would like it to be recorded
that you did not permit me to speak.  I did not disclose a lot of what I was
going to help you with because in other areas, you go astray.  What should I
do, Speaker?  [LAUGHTER]  T/E


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Ngiyabonga kakhulu Mhlonishwa.  [

Thank you, very much hon

  o F 
 member].

  I will now call upon the hon member Mr Nel, who has got a minute.


  o F N
 


MR W U NEL:
  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  It is entirely appropriate that this sort
of matter be discussed in this House, and also as a matter of urgency.  I do not
understand why there should be interferences from other quarters into the
decisions of this House, and when we should not debate matters, and when
they are or are not important.  That is our function, and we should do that with
all the might at our disposal.

Sir, it is a disgrace that we continue with this kind of event in our country.  We
have seen it in Bulwer, we have seen it in Richmond and never do we get to
the bottom of it, never.  We can debate it here until we are blue in the face,
and never will we get to the bottom of the truth.  Today already we have heard
from the one side.  They say there was interference with the police.  From the
other side they say no, but the police have been interfering for a number of
decades in this situation, and therefore they were now trying some other           ""
!
!&&  
means.  It arises because sometimes the government treats the police and the
defence force as their own personal property.


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  The hon member's time is up.


  o F j
 
MR W U NEL:
  And on the other side people then take their own measures,
both of which are unacceptable.


  o F 

 
THE SPEAKER:
  Thank you.


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 

 
THE SPEAKER:
  I will now call upon the hon Minister Inkosi Ngubane, who has
got seven minutes.


  o F >

 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and

  o F 
 Minister of Safety and Security):
  Thank you, Mr Speaker, and the hon House. 
I have been listening with both ears to the concerns of some of the hon
members in this House with regards to this issue.  As a Department, we are
doing something with the aim of addressing the whole issue.  We are not just
sitting down without attempting to try and do anything about it.

To prove that, on 12 March 1999 a group of about 3 500 to 4 000 people was
addressed by Senior Superintendent Maseko from Tugela Ferry with the aim of
addressing this problem.  Again, sir, on 17 March 1999 there was another
meeting where the community, amongst other things, complained about outside
forces.  Besides other local problems, the biggest issue was that one of the
outside forces operating in the area without reporting to the nearby police
station.

On 18 June 1998, a letter was written to all station commissioners and unit
commanders around Tugela Ferry by the Area Commissioner Dubazane, who
also complained about outside forces entering his area of jurisdiction without
reporting to the nearby police station.  It was specified that outside forces
must, when entering to operate in the area, report to the local police station in           ""
!
!&&  
order for a police officer to accompany them into the area.  In the case of any
urgency, report to the police station before leaving the area in case they had
entered the area without reporting to the nearby police station.  To report all
arrests that were made.  To report any exhibits or property confiscated.  Any
damage to property in case there was any.  Any incident which can lead to
complaints, in case there are any.

Mr Speaker, and the hon House, I really know nothing about Imbube Security
Company.  I have never heard of them.  It is the first time I have heard about
them.  Therefore I know nothing about that.


  o F 	
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION


  o F z

 
INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and

  o F \

 Minister of Safety and Security):
  The same Area Commissioner again wrote
another letter in the same tone on 8 January 1999.  A letter dated 28 August
stated that 50 cases of misconduct by police were being investigated.  That is
why I am saying we are doing something.  If police misbehave themselves in
the area, the Department is doing something.

Another letter was written to the National Commissioner on 4 September 1998
by the Provincial Commissioner pleading about what should be done with police
or security people who come from other areas, even with cross(c)border policing
between provinces.  A reply was sent to the Provincial Commissioner by the
National Commissioner guaranteeing that such members visiting provinces must
report to the local police station.  If it had not been done they must do it after
having completed their work and before leaving the local police station.  But
that is not happening.

The police did not delay this matter, as some of the people say this matter is
being delayed by the police.  What should be done is that perhaps all the people
concerned should state their case, including the police.  Our members asked
why the investigation was being done by a certain office in Pietermaritzburg
instead of the office in Newcastle.  Any police officer within the Province can
investigate a matter as long as the Provincial Commissioner has requested him
to do so.  It is not compulsory that the investigating officer must come from
the area where such incidents took place.           ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
MR J H JEFFERY:
  Can they come from Mpumalanga?


  o F 
 
INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and

  o F 
 Minister of Safety and Security):
  The matter in which the hon Minister of
Health was involved, I do not think is similar to this one we are discussing here.


  o F L
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 

 
INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and

  o F 

 Minister of Safety and Security):
  It is not quite similar.  I do not mean to say
that nothing should be done, but I am saying you cannot compare the two
matters.


  o F z

 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F >

 


INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and

  o F  

 Minister of Safety and Security):
  Because this one we are referring to members
who come from another province into our Province.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Order please!  Order!


  o F N
 
INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and

  o F 0
 Minister of Safety and Security):
  Therefore this is a different matter altogether.


  o F 
 
MRS H M BLOSE:
  INTERJECTION.


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Order, Mrs Blose.


  o F |
 
INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and

  o F ^
 Minister of Safety and Security):
  I agree that this matter must also involve our
Premier as it involved other provinces, i.e. Mpumalanga.  I cannot answer the
hon member Mr Cele if the question is directed to the IFP.  I am here to deal
with this matter on a departmental basis.


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  The hon Minister is left with one minute to wind up.            ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and

  o F  
 Minister of Safety and Security):
  Not on a political party line.  


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION


  o F j
 
INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and

  o F L
 Minister of Safety and Security):
  Yes, I am a strong IFP member in addition to
that.  Therefore, I think that perhaps the Provincial Government should liaise
with the Province of Mpumalanga to find out why those security forces from
Mpumalanga  are involved.  I am going to ask the Premier to help me so that
we can pursue this matter and see how far we get.

But I would like to warn the hon members in this House, that  rather than
following the necessary steps, this matter has been politicised, therefore, as
the hon member Mr Nel has said, I do not think we will ever solve this problem,
because of the politicking.

Therefore, Mr Speaker, I think what should be done is that we should try to
investigate this matter with Mpumalanga about the involvement of those
security forces.  I have planned some meetings in the area because I
understand that during their last meeting, the people said they would like me
to come and explain the whole situation.  Therefore I am going to arrange a
date  with the members of the Portfolio Committee.  I thank you, sir.


  o F 0
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Thank you.  I now call upon the hon member Mr Cele, who has
got five minutes.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F ^
 
MR B H CELE:
  This is a further quotation on what has been written by this
concerned, superintendent:

 X""
 Mr Powell was becoming very confrontational, and I got the idea that
he was trying to provoke a situation which would put me in a bad
light.  I then informed him that I would be taking the matter to higher           ""
!
!&&  
authority on Monday morning.  After more words were exchanged
between Mr Powell and myself, I walked away from him."

This is a powerful man and the policeman decides to walk away from him when
he is speaking to him.  The question is, is the IFP distancing itself from Powell
for such deeds, or are they standing by him?  That must be made clear.


  o F .
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 

 
MR B H CELE:
  We are not necessarily saying that the Minister must answer to
that, but the IFP must say whether they stand by him on this kind of disgusting
activities that he is conducting at Msinga.  I heard the IFP only complaining
about the police that are jetting in and out.  All of us do, not only today, but we
have for a long time.  I have not heard them say anything about what the hon
Powell has done.  Is he too big to be tackled?  Is he too much of a giant to look
at him?  Why are you so scared that you cannot even utter anything about him
and his activities on this one?  Why is he so almighty?  Why can the public not
even  utter his name?  The guy is so almighty, he is so big, he is so huge.  Why
so much?  Why?


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION


  o F l
 
MR B H CELE:
  Therefore we say, if he is so mighty as an individual, this
Parliament cannot be put in disrepute by the activities of its member.  We will
have to get clarity on that. 

Another thing we will have to get clarity on is the powers of the police
management to tell or to instruct the Speaker of this House to postpone a
debate that is requested by this House.  Who runs this House?  Is it the
Speaker or is it the police management?


  o F ^
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Or both.


  o F "
 
MR B H CELE:
  Or both.  It has been proposed, and it has been raised that a
commission of inquiry must be established to look at all these matters.  As ANC
we say yes, let this National Commissioner come.  If the people complain, we
can go back to what we agreed to at the beginning of last year, that in           ""
!
!&&  
conjunction with the President and in conjunction with the Premier, they
appoint a commissioner.


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  The hon member is left with two minutes to wind up.


  o F j
 
MR B H CELE:
  And then all these corners and all these things we will begin to
find answers to, but IFP please, stand up and be counted.  Is Powell doing this
on your behalf?  I thank you.


  o F 

 


THE SPEAKER:
  Thank you.


  o F 	
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Mr Speaker.


  o F z

 
THE SPEAKER:
  We have the hon member Mrs Cronje.


  o F >

 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Yes.  Mr Speaker, on a point of order.  It is
customary when there is a motion before the House that it should either be
withdrawn or put to the House.  In this instance, the ANC would like to put to
the House that we amend our resolution somewhat to read:

 X""
 That a National, in conjunction with a Provincial Commission of Inquiry
be instituted to deal with the matter."


  o F N
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Hon member, is that an amendment to the motion?


  o F 
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Yes, that it be somewhat amended, because
there seems to be some unanimity on that.


  o F |
 
THE SPEAKER:
  What point are you raising there?


  o F @
 


MR R M BURROWS:
  Mr Speaker, on a point of order.  I do not believe that we
can vote on any motion that is not in writing and before the House.  I therefore
call on you to postpone the matter till later in the day when we have had the
motion distributed to all the members.
            ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Hon member Mr Tarr.


  o F 
 
MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):
  Mr Speaker, I am afraid you have caught me, I
was briefly out of the House.  I am not sure of the exact wording of the motion
and what we are expected to vote on.  But I would ask, Mr Speaker, if there
is going to be a motion, that the voting on any motion be postponed or the
motion be put once the different parties have had a chance to look at the exact
wording, and even if we voted later on in the day where you could find a slot,
or even tomorrow.  But to vote on something now which we are not absolutely
sure on is quite clearly out of the question, Mr Speaker.


  o F 	
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  We agree to that, Mr Speaker, from our side,
that the matter stands down.


THE MOTION AS MOVED BY MR CELE (c) STANDS DOWN



  o F  

 
THE SPEAKER:
  Thank you.  Let us move on to item 8.2 on the Order Paper. 
KwaZulu(c)Natal Commissions Bill, 1999.  I think that members do have the list
of speakers.  I will now call upon the hon Premier, who has got 15 minutes.


KWAZULU(c)NATAL COMMISSIONS BILL.



  o F l
 
THE PREMIER:
  Mr Speaker, the existing legislation which governs the
appointment of Commissions of Inquiry is the Natal Commissions Ordinance,
1966 (Ordinance No 26 of 1966), which was assigned to the Province in terms
of section 235(8) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1993 or
(Act 200 of 1993).  Section 229 of the said Constitution provided amongst
others that, I quote:

 X""
 ...all laws which immediately before the commencement of this
Constitution were in force in any area which forms part of the national
territory, shall continue in force in such area, subject to any repeal or
amendment of such laws by a competent authority."

Since the Natal Commissions Ordinance, 1966, applied within the jurisdictional
area of the erstwhile Province of Natal, it follows that the said Ordinance
continued to apply within such jurisdiction.  To ensure that it is in force   -        ""
!
!&&  
throughout the area of jurisdiction of KwaZulu(c)Natal, it is necessary that it must
either be extended to the whole of KwaZulu(c)Natal or, to repeal it and legislate
anew on commissions of inquiry.  My Department has adopted the latter course
of action.

Briefly, the Bill provides as follows:


  o F .
 
Clause 1
 

 : XC
C
 The definitions.C



  o F 

 
Clause 2
 

 : XC
C
 This clause empowers the Premier to appoint a
commission of inquiry (herein referred to as "the
commission").  This clause enables the Premier to
define its terms of reference, and to make
regulations to provide for necessary administrative,
procedural and other arrangements to ensure the
smooth operation of the commission in the
execution of its duties.C



  o F 
 
Clause 3
 

 : XC
C
 Empowers the Chairperson to determine the place
and time of the sittings of the commission.C



  o F 
 
Clause 4
 

 : XC
C
 This clause gives the commission the power to
subpoena a witness who has knowledge of what is
being investigated by the commission.C



  o F 
 
Clause 5
 

 : XC
C
 Provides for offences which may be committed by a
witness who has been subpoenaed by the
commission.C



  o F 
 
Clause 6
 

 : XC
C
 Provides for offences which may be committed
against a witness.  For example, any person who
intimidates, corrupts or bribes any witness to refrain
from giving evidence shall be guilty of an offence.C



  o F -
 
Clause 7
 

 : XC
C
 Provides that any person who obstructs, interrupts,
hinders or disturbs the commission in the execution
of its duties shall be guilty of an offence.C
           ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
Clause 8
 

 : XC
C
 Provides for the submission of a report by the
commission including progress reports where
applicable.C



  o F 
 
Clause 9
 

 : XC
C
 Protects the confidentiality of the proceedings of the
commission.C



  o F .
 
Clause 10
 

 : XC
C
 Empowers the commission to make rules which will
govern its proceedings.C



  o F 
 
Clause 11
 

 : XC
C
 Provides that the cost of the running of the
commission shall, as a general rule, be the
responsibility of the Provincial Government.C



  o F \

 
Clause 12
 

 : XC
C
 This clause, while providing for the repeal of the
Natal Commissions Ordinance, 1966, (Ordinance 26
of 1966), it, however, saves anything that has been
done in terms of the said Ordinance.C



  o F 
 
Clause 13
 

 : XC
C
 Is the short title.C


Mr Speaker, and hon members, I place before this House the Bill for debate. 
I thank you.


  o F 0
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr
Aulsebrook, who has got 10 minutes to speak.


  o F 
 
MR J F AULSEBROOK:
  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Firstly, I must report to the
House that the Portfolio Committee's report on this Bill was in fact tabled
before this House at our last sitting in Ulundi.

The KwaZulu(c)Natal Commissions Bill was referred to the Premier's Portfolio
Committee on 18 November 1998.  On December 3, 1998 the Bill was
published in the Provincial Gazette in all three languages, and then
subsequently dealt with by the Committee.  At a meeting in Ulundi on 5            ""
!
!&&  
January 1999 the Premier's Portfolio Committee considered the Bill, and made
certain amendments which are covered in the report.  The Committee then
adopted the Bill unanimously.

Mr Speaker, this Bill replaces the Ordinance of 1966, as the Premier has
pointed out, but also another bit of legislation that was used to call
commissions in this Province was the 1947 Commissions Act.  We are
certainly, in adopting this Bill,  tidying up two pieces of legislation into one
consolidated piece, that will provide for the efficient and effective calling of
commissions in this Province.

We on this side of the House, and as a member on this side of the House,
would certainly compliment the Premier and his Department for having brought
this Bill before the House.


  o F >

 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
MR J F AULSEBROOK:
  The IFP led Government has handled the issue of
commissions in a very responsible way in its five years of office.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F l
 
MR J F AULSEBROOK:
  In fact one of the national leaders of another political
party, on television this morning, was saying that there have been more
commissions called by the National Government than houses built.  It might
have been a slight exaggeration, but there certainly have been.  I would almost
say as much money has been spent on commissions as has been spent on
housing in this country.

Listening to Mr Jeffery in the earlier debate, with just two months to go to the
elections, he referred to the issue of peace in this Province that it was a serious
matter, and more specifically when he referred to the killing of farmers as being
a very serious issue.  It will be wrong of me not to refer to Winnie MadikizelaMandela's speech at the weekend, where she misled the people on the ground. 
She was misinforming the people and the biggest concern being is that the
ANC are silent on this issue.
   !         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION


  o F 
 
MR J F AULSEBROOK:
  They have not condemned her.  With their silence they
are condoning what she is saying.  Is this conducive to peace in the Province. 
They are calling for commissions for all sorts of other activities.  Maybe we
need to call for a commission into these sort of utterances by the ANC as being
provocative in the forthcoming elections.


  o F 

 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 


MR J F AULSEBROOK:
  I say to the ANC, why no comment?  Why this silence? 
What is behind them in this issue?


  o F z

 
MR A J HAMILTON:
  They do not know what to do about her.


  o F >

 
MR J F AULSEBROOK:
  I think it is time that they stood up and were counted,
because quite honestly, it is very easy to stand up on that side of the House
and condemn everything everyone else does, but let us see where they stand. 
Thank you, Mr Speaker.


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Hear! Hear! 


  o F l
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:
  The next on the list is Mr Jeffery.  You have nine
minutes.


  o F 
 
MR J H JEFFERY:
  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I am a bit astounded
that the hon Mr Aulsebrook praises the hon Premier and his Department for this
Bill.  The passage of this Bill has not been particularly fortunate.  It first made
its appearance on 12 March 1998, and it was accompanied by a letter saying
that the 1966 Ordinance was outdated and we therefore needed a new Bill. 
But on closer examination, that Bill was in fact a rehash of the 1947 Act which
the Department had not pointed out to us.  When that was finally pointed out,
the Bill was then withdrawn, and the Bill that you have before you was then
introduced.  So I do not think that is a particularly good record.  It wasted our
time quite considerably, and caused a lot of wasted expenditure to this
Legislature.  Just to raise that as a concern.  I know we have a new Premier
now, but to really urge that in future these kinds of things should not happen.   "        ""
!
!&&Ԍ(tm)The second point I wanted to raise was this.  It is accepted that the
Constitution gives the Premier the power to appoint commissions.  This is a Bill
attempting to define how those commissions should operate, and that
obviously what needs to be accepted is those commissions must be in terms
of the Constitution.  The Premier, for example, cannot hold a commission into
something not within the Province's competence.  We cannot have a
commission of inquiry in this Province into Kosovo, and that needs to be looked
at.

Then further, the commissions need to be in accordance with the Constitution. 
Mr Aulsebrook has said, and I find it a bit strange that Mr Aulsebrook, speaking
as Portfolio Committee Chair makes party comments.  It is fairly inappropriate. 
But he said that the Province or the IFP has handled commissions in a
responsible manner.

Mr Speaker, I am concerned about the only commission that we have had ...


  o F 
 
MR J F AULSEBROOK:
  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.


  o F 
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:
  Can the hon member resume his seat.


  o F 
 
MR J F AULSEBROOK:
  Point of order.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I was very
specific in saying that as a member of this side of the House when I made the
second half of my statement.  Thank you.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
MR J H JEFFERY:
  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, my speaker's list says
Portfolio Committee Chair, John Aulsebrook.  But anyway, not to waste further
time.  Unfortunately, the only example we have of a commission that this
Premier has appointed has been this recent one into Dr Mkhize.  The Premier
has said, and I made reference to it earlier, but just to get the quote, "I was
duty bound and honour bound to take appropriate steps as Premier".  Now the
question has been raised, why an investigation into that matter?  We have had
before this House a military intelligence report implicating another member of
the Cabinet, Inkosi Ngubane and other members of this House in acts of
violence.  No commission.  We have had this debate on Philip Powell.  No   #        ""
!
!&&  
commission it seems.  It seems now Inkosi Ngubane is blaming Mpumalanga.

Is the Premier not actually using the commission to further the political interests
of the IFP?  Why for example is Advocate van Lires appointed as the
commissioner, and we know for a fact that the Province wanted to appoint the
former Attorney(c)General, Advocate McNally, but failed to do so.  We know that
for a fact?  But why Advocate van Lires?  He was the Attorney(c)General of
Gauteng.  He resigned, retired because of ill(c)health and got a big payment for
that.  Now we find him running around very energetically.  He was in the Malan
trial representing the Caprivi hitmen.


  o F 	
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION


  o F z

 
AN HON MEMBER:
  That is not your business.


  o F >

 
MR J H JEFFERY:
  I understand that he was also the prosecutor in the Biko
inquest.  I am not sure if that is correct, but possibly the Premier can answer. 
He has represented SANDF Generals for the attack in Umtata which my hon
colleague Mr Mkhwanazi should be concerned about.  So why Advocate van
Lires?  What kind of judgment is Advocate van Lires going to come up with. 
Can he be perceived as being neutral?

The other aspect is what is the role of the advisor of the Minister of Home
Affairs in this matter, Mr Mario G D Aranio Ambrosini?  Why is he involved in
this issue?  Why is he, we understand, writing to an Advocate Gauntlet,
purporting to write on behalf of the Premier and requesting legal opinions?  And
then asking Advocate Gauntlet to come back to him, or to come back to his
attorneys?  What is the role of Mr Ambrosini in this matter?  Is he the legal
advisor to the IFP?  What has it got to do with this Province?  He is the advisor
to the Minister of Home Affairs, as Minister of Home Affairs, not as president
of the IFP.  So those are concerns.

We have also then seen problems in the way that things have proceeded.  The
Premier issued a notice proclaiming a commission.  The ANC and Dr Mkhize got

  o F -
 an interdict against that.  There is a rule nisi which is still outstanding.  The
return date is 6 April.  The Premier has denied publicly that he has withdrawn
that commission.  We have seen subsequently that it has been withdrawn in   $        ""
!
!&&  
the Gazette on Thursday and that there is a new commission appointed trying
to overcome the technicalities that were raised.  He has denied that he
intended paying the legal costs involved.  The ANC has a letter from the
Premier's attorneys offering to pay legal costs.


  o F j
 The other aspect is that the original rule nisi, the interdict that has been issued,
has not been resolved.  Its return date is 6 April.  So is the Premier not in
contempt of court by proceeding with issuing a new notice setting up a new
commission?

But, Mr Speaker, the bottom line is that the Premier has a constitutional power
to appoint commissions.  It is obvious that those commissions must be
appointed responsibly, and I would really disagree with what the hon Mr
Aulsebrook has said in his capacity not as Portfolio Committee Chair as on the
speaker's list, but as a member of the IFP, that this Province has handled
commissions responsibly.  I really think that if you do not appoint a neutral
person with a fair term of reference into a number of issues, then you are going
to actually end up with a considerable waste of provincial expenditure.  Already
provincial money has been wasted.


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION


  o F l
 
MR J H JEFFERY:
  How much is the Province going to have to pay for our legal
costs?  How much may the Province have to pay for further costs?  Which
budget is it coming out of?  Has the hon Premier got a report from the police
on the matter, because as far as we are aware, all he has is allegations which
have been retracted and everybody knows that.  So is the Premier really
properly using his powers or is he trying to use his powers to actually gain
political advantage for the IFP in an election year?  Thank you, Mr Speaker.


  o F |
 
THE SPEAKER:
  I now call upon the hon member Mr Hamilton, who has got 12
minutes.


  o F "
 
MR A J HAMILTON:
  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, first of all, I would
like to congratulate and compliment the Premier on bringing this Bill to this
House.  It is high time we had one, and I just must say to my hon colleague JJ
Jeffery across the floor, that I think he really must have been scraping the   %        ""
!
!&&  
bottom of the barrel with what he had to say to the House just now.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
MR A J HAMILTON:
  I mean it seemed to be a long series of excuses, stitched
together accusations without any relevance whatsoever.


  o F .
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Order, hon member Mr Hamilton.  Hon member Mr Jeffery.


  o F 

 


MR J H JEFFERY:
  Can I ask the hon member if he will take a question?


  o F 	
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS



  o F z

 THE SPEAKER:
  Order please!  Order!  Order!


  o F >

 
MR J H JEFFERY:
  Can I ask the hon member if he will take a question?  It will
be a very short one.


  o F 
 
MR A J HAMILTON:
  No, Mr Speaker, I will not.  I do not believe any question
the hon John Jeffery is going to ask me will have any further relevance.

Anyway, Mr Speaker, since Mr Jeffery raised the matter of Advocate van Lires
and Advocate McNally, I believe both those gentlemen have got an impeccable
record.  They are held in the highest regard by the legal fraternity.  Perhaps the
hon Jeffery's objection to both Advocate van Lires and Advocate McNally was
that they were not intimidated by marches by the ANC into their offices in
order to intimidate them and beat them into submission to come up with
solutions that my hon friends across the House would like to get from them.


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Very good reasons.


  o F ^
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F "
 
MR A J HAMILTON:
  I would just like to say, Mr Speaker, that everything that
I have heard about Advocate McNally, and from the legal fraternity as well,
leave me to believe that he did his job very well.
   &         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
MR A J HAMILTON:
  And he himself was the one that said he believed that
political interest played a role in his departure from office.  I may say that I
think Advocate McNally is probably quite pleased to be out of office with the
golden handshake that he got in order for the ANC to pay him off and plant
somebody that would do their bidding in that office.


  o F 

 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
MR A J HAMILTON:
  Anyway, Mr Speaker, what I would like to get onto,
having completed what I had to say on those particular issues, is the matter of
crime.  We always come back to crime, it is a very serious issue, and I believe
that the Commissions Bill will go some way to curb crime under an IFP
Government.  We will use commissions responsibly, we will not abuse the
Commissions Bill.  The proof of that is we have never had one, we do not use
commissions to make political points, as the hon Jeffery just had to say.  

What I do believe we have is we do have a problem with crime.  A lot of that
problem is a result of unemployment, and we should recognise that.  Since the
Central Government has neither the fortitude nor the finance to properly fill
vacant police posts in this Province, I understand that we have some 13 000
vacant police posts in South Africa, we need to be innovative and look at other
ways of tackling that problem.  Once again, our Premier in his maiden address
as Premier to this House, and on two other occasions has in fact referred to
"Car Watch".

Car Watch, Mr Speaker, is an opportunity this Government has to make a
tremendous impact on aspects of crime in our Province, and since we cannot
get any help from the National Government, we are quite right about Car
Watch.  The Premier has to be complimented on his reference to Car Watch. 
The effect that Car Watch has had on the figures of crime in Durban and
Pietermaritzburg and Newcastle where they operate is remarkable.  I would like
to quote the Durban figures.  

Theft of motor vehicles in Point Road in December 1996 compared to
December 1997, car theft dropped from 136 motor vehicles in December 1996   '        ""
!
!&&  
to 36 motor vehicles in December 1997.  Petty crimes category, and that is the
SAPS category, petty crimes you may define as handbag snatching, common
assault and such things which are not petty if they are happening to you, but
it showed a 40% reduction during the year that Car Watch was operating in the
Durban central district.  On top of that, Mr Speaker, bank robberies showed a
50% decline in the area that Car Watch was operating.  I would like to cite one
case in bank robberies.  A bank was held up in Field Street in Durban, a Car
Watch operative was there, he saw a car arrive that looked suspicious, he took
the number of the car, four people went up into the bank and then came
running out with a large bag of money.


  o F 	
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Were you there?


  o F z

 
MR A J HAMILTON:
  I have got the police report.  The Car Watch operative had
the number, he alerted the police.  In seven minutes the police arrived.  Car
Watch in fact got the number of their car and the SAPS looked up the address
and visited a block of flats in the Albert Park area.  He was also able to
describe the four people that had perpetrated the robbery.  Police were able to
apprehend the first one, who turned out to be a sergeant in the SAPS, who
then split on the other three people, who were then apprehended within 40
minutes.  All four of the perpetrators of that act were in prison in less than two
hours, thanks to Car Watch.

Mr Speaker, Car Watch is a very remarkable organisation, and it is affiliated to
Business Against Crime under the chairmanship of Robert Mauvis and the
operating officer is Mark Todd.  I have had personal experience of these
gentlemen and their dedication and commitment to the Car Watch organisation.


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  What about their shares?


  o F |
 
MR A J HAMILTON:
  And it is quite easy for us to have a major impact on
crime in this Province by finding ways of funding the Car Watch operation.  We
did look at a R1 a month levy on motor vehicles in the Province, and for that
R12 million the Car Watch operation in conjunction with the Arc would have
been able to put in 8 000 operatives throughout the Province with police band
radios, with proper administration offices operating out of SAPS and city police
offices.  We would have also been able to tackle the question of teenage   (        ""
!
!&&  
prostitution, rehabilitation of street children and drug addicts through the Ark,
and R12 million is not a lot of money, and it is something that the Province
could do something about right away.  If we went for R5 million we could put
5 500 operatives in this Province, right through the Province.  It would not only
have been Car Watch, it is not just Car Watch, it is Car Watch, street watch,
block watch, market watch, crowd watch and maybe even something to do
with farm watch.


  o F 

 
AN HON MEMBER:
  ANC watch.


  o F 
 
MR A J HAMILTON:
  Mr Speaker, I would like to commend the Premier once
again, both for the commission and for his reference and recognition of the
important role that an organisation like Car Watch can play, and in line with the
innovative thinking that is coming from this Province on this side of the House,
I would like to thank you for the opportunity of speaking, and I support the
Commission Bill.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr Waugh,
who has got four minutes.


  o F l
 
MR J C N WAUGH:
  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  May I say that when the hon Mr
Hamilton started speaking about crime and so on, I first thought that there is
something in this Commissions Bill that will bring forward some ideas or some
innovations to stop crime in this Province.  But unfortunately he did not give us
any hope of that, so I would not like to deal with anything further about what
he said.  We agree with the principle of Car Watch, but when we get to the
Commissions Bill, I do not think there is any mention of Car Watch in the
Commissions Bill.


  o F ^
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F "
 
MR J C N WAUGH:
  Mr Speaker, in terms of section 127(2)(e) of the
Constitution, the Premier of the Province is responsible for appointing
commissions of inquiry.  The Bill before us is there to set out the rules under
which such commissions will be appointed and will operate.  We welcome this   )        ""
!
!&&  
Bill before the House as it replaces the existing Ordinance of 1966.  It takes
into account the philosophies and laws of today, and also the spirit of the new
Constitution.

But while on this topic of commissions, I once again would like to raise an
issue, and that is the issue of the permanent commission of inquiry for which
we asked, to be looking into police efficiency and police/community relations. 
I am once again referring to the hon member Mr Gordon Haygarth's Bill. 
Although the legal advisor indicated that it is unconstitutional, we do not
necessarily agree with that.  We are of the opinion that, that Bill will assist with
the situation in our Province.

We ask that urgent consideration be given for the implementation of this Bill. 
The Bill before us just does not have enough in it to deal with issues like
Msinga and Richmond as we discussed during a debate earlier today.  We say
the solution to that would be a permanent commission looking into those
matters.  The situation in the last few years within our Province has been of
great concern to all parliamentarians, the police services and all the people of
the Province.  Therefore we say, this permanent commission is a necessity for
this Province.

But, Mr Speaker, as we are today approving this Commissions Bill before us,
I would just like to bring something to the attention of the Premier.  That is, the
Safety and Security Portfolio Committee some time ago appointed a subcommittee to look into the matters at Richmond.  One of the recommendations
of that Committee was that a commission of inquiry be appointed to look into
this matter.  


  o F 
 

This recommendation was even approved by a full Portfolio Committee, but up
to this day this has not happened.  We need to have that commission approved
as decided at that stage.  But what has happened?  The National Government
has now gone and appointed a commission looking into all the hot spots in the
Province.  Why are decisions that are taken in this Province not adhered to? 
Why must the National Government step in and deal with matters like this?  If
it is because this Bill has not been finalised yet, we on this side of the House,
for sure hope that this will not happen again.
   *         ""
!
!&&  ԌMr Speaker, therefore, we support this Bill and hope that the Government of
the Province makes good use of this Bill, and in the interest of all the people of
the Province, and not only a specific sector.  I thank you.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F L
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr Burrows,
who has got two minutes.


  o F 

 
MR R M BURROWS:
  Mr Speaker, thank you.  The Democratic Party will
support the Bill before us.  There are only three points I wish to make.

First of all, it is once again unfortunate that the prime party exponent of
federalism should have to take a Commissions Bill from another province, after
having had the unfortunate history of the Commissions Bill that Mr Jeffery has
gone through.  Nevertheless, the Bill itself imported from Gauteng appears to
have significant and good features.

I am very pleased to see that, however, unlike the Gauteng Bill which has this
dominant centralist tendency of the ANC within it, the Bill that we have before
us today allows in section 8(b), in the event of a commission not being
unanimous in its finding, such fact must be stated in the report contemplated
and all divergent views and reasons thereof must be incorporated in the
commission's report.  In fact a minority report is allowed, and it is a very good
thing too, which the ANC would never think of, obviously.


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Order, hon member Mr John Jeffery.  Thank you.


  o F |
 
MR R M BURROWS:
  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  He is a very noisy little man. 
The third point I want to make is that the Bill itself is a structural skeleton Bill
that allows the Premier to set up commissions of inquiry flowing from the rights
that are given to him in ...


  o F -
 
THE SPEAKER:
  The hon member is left with 30 seconds.
   +         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
MR R M BURROWS:
  Many people have mentioned crime.  There are significant
other areas he can look at.  He can appoint commissions of inquiry into
Education and what has happened there.  He can appoint commissions of
inquiry into Economic Affairs and into land holdings.  I plead that in those three
areas he will do so very soon.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.


  o F L
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Thank you.  Unfortunately the hon member Mr Rajbansi is not
in.  I now call upon hon member Mr Mkhwanazi, who has got one minute.


  o F 

 
MR J D MKHWANAZI:
  I cannot even say thank you, Mr Speaker, because I
have only one minute to complete my speech.

Mr Speaker, the PAC will support this Bill only because we hope it will help the
Premier to solve the problems that are facing this Province and the country. 
One of them being crime that is devastating this Province.

Two, the question of political violence which is also bedeviling this Province. 
We therefore hope this will give the Premier the teeth and the izinzipho
zokufaka zibambe lezizinto ezimbili nezinye eziphuma endleleni.  Sibayeke laba
esithi sikhuluma bebebezama ukusiphazamisa engingazi ukuthi baphumaphi

  o F 
 bona labantu abaluhlaza kangaka e(c)Afrika.  [nails to grab and hold these two
things as well as others that are going astray.  Let us ignore those who try to
interrupt or disturb us while we talk.  I do not know from where abouts in

  o F N
 Africa such people, rude people come from].  Thank you.


  o F 
 


THE SPEAKER:
  Siyabonga.  I will call upon the hon Premier to reply to the
debate.


  o F 
 
THE PREMIER:
  Mr Speaker, and hon members of the House.  In the first place,
I would like to commend the members of this House who have had a share in
the debate on this Bill.  While the Bill does not deal specifically with issues of
crime, its scope could embrace that matter as and when the need arises.  As
was pointed out by two members of this House, this is a Bill which forms the
framework within which the Premier can address matters which are of primary
importance to this Province.  

As the hon member Mr Burrows pointed out, that among issues that we could   ,         ""
!
!&&  
look into by setting up appropriate commissions could be issues of Education,
Economic Affairs and one could even add the Tender Board operations.

We also would like to note here the matter raised by the hon member Mr
Mkhwanazi, that within the framework provided by this Bill we could address
issues such as the high rate of criminality in this Province, in so far as it affects
the law enforcement officers who fall under the jurisdiction of the Provincial
Commissioner, and the Provincial Minister of Safety and Security.  Also those
aspects which deal specifically with issues of political violence in this Province.

We also take cognisance of the fact that the National Government has set itself
the task of establishing a commission which will look into the overall picture of
political violence in this Province, for almost two decades.  One may observe
that a commission may not replace the role of the law enforcement officers
who have always been present in this Province.  When political violent acts
once were committed the law enforcement officers opened case dockets.  One
just wonders why they did not investigate and actually finalise matters to be
brought before court.  This is an interesting observation to make.  One could
also observe that a process was set in motion, which was the TRC process. 
Why bring a general commission, long after the conclusion of the TRC process. 
Does this not negate the contribution of the TRC process?  These are just
questions to which one has no answers.

To come back to the point raised by the hon member Mr Jeffery.  I would like
to state here that when we appointed this commission, we had no political
agenda whatsoever.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
THE PREMIER:
  We are shocked to find that the reaction of the leader of the
African National Congress in this Province was that he accused us of attacking
the African National Congress, when in fact we were dealing with allegations
against a person who holds a high political office in the Province, irrespective
of the party to which he belongs.  Now why the link was drawn between the
two, fails one's understanding.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS   -         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
THE PREMIER:
  I am a very responsible person, and I will not concern myself,
with the heckling that goes on and on and on.

Mr Speaker, it will be quite wrong of me, in this debate, to give details of the
Dr Mkhize commission of inquiry.  I cannot do that.  I am a responsible person. 
If lawyers appearing for Dr Mkhize require specific details they will be supplied
with information in the normal legal process.


  o F 

 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Have you supplied them?


  o F 
 
THE PREMIER:
  As a matter of fact this has been done.  I am surprised why the
hon member is in fact going around in circles and trying to wring my arm in
order to virtually extract a drop of blood from an innocent soul.


  o F \

 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION AND LAUGHTER


  o F  

 
THE SPEAKER:
  Hon member Mr Makhaye, please behave yourself.  Thank you.


  o F 
 
THE PREMIER:
  If hon members are going to use this debate in order to preempt replies to specific questions which have been posed by others here, I am
afraid that practice is unacceptable.  There are specific questions which have
been posed by, for instance, the hon member Mr Ngidi who wants to find out
from me about the financial implications of the commission that we have
appointed.  Indeed, I am duty bound and I am ready to answer those questions
tomorrow.  Why do you not wait until tomorrow?


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
THE PREMIER:
  Secondly, there was a question asked by the hon member Mrs
Cronje regarding the so(c)called involvement of Dr Ambrosini.  I am replying to
that specific question tomorrow.  Thank you.  As a responsible person, I will
not waste the time of this House, but state that we assure this House that this
Commissions Bill will ultimately be signed into law after being approved by this
House and will be used in the best interests of this Province.

May I thank the House for their contribution to this Bill.  Thank you.
   .         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  We have come to the end of the debate.  I would like to put
the question.


  o F j
 
KWAZULU(c)NATAL COMMISSIONS BILL, 1999  (c)  PASSED



  o F .
 




THE SPEAKER:
  I will ask the Secretary to read the Bill.


  o F 

 
THE SECRETARY:
  KwaZulu(c)Natal Commissions Bill, 1999.


  o F 	
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Thank you.  The House will adjourn till 2 o'clock this
afternoon.  The House adjourns.


  o F \

 )
 
THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE SUSPENDED AT 11:52

  o F >

 

 RESUMED AT 14:02
ă


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  I will advise every member of this Legislature, and also the
public to switch off their cellphones please.  Thank you.  We have now come
to 8.3, the Committee Stage.  I propose that I leave the Chair and the
Sergeant(c)at(c)Arms to lower the mace.  Thank you.


  o F l
 
THE HOUSE RESOLVED INTO A COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE


  o F N
 
MR M R MZOBE TAKES THE CHAIR



  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  We shall be dealing with vote 3, which is Agriculture.  I
will therefore call upon the hon the Minister, Mr Singh, to address the House. 
Mr Minister, thank you.


KWAZULU(c)NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL, 1999/2000



  o F ^
 
VOTE 3 : DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE.



  o F "
 


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):
  Thank you very much.  Mr
Chairman, colleagues, hon Premier, Cabinet colleagues.  Firstly, Mr Chairman,
may I indicate to colleagues in the House that there are brown paper bags
placed in front of them.  I have cleared this with the Speaker, and the contents   /        ""
!
!&&  
in the bag are as follows.  Some brochures which deal with the Xoshindlala
campaign and an update, and overview of the Department's strategy on
Agriculture.  A brochure on rural protection.  A departmental executive
telephone directory.  An additional copy of the Department's annual report for
each member's constituency office.  The departmental magazine and short
course programmes, and also complimentary fruit.  A banana from our Province
and a small packet of biscuits made by our home economics ladies.

Mr Chairman, the Annual Report of the KwaZulu(c)Natal Department of
Agriculture for 1998 which was tabled in this House, last week, gives details
of the activities of my Department.  In this Policy Speech I will concentrate on
a few of the highlights of the past year, and focus on how my Department will
strive towards delivering service excellence.  Within these parameters, I shall
address the proposals for the coming year, without losing sight of the goals and
objectives set out in the White Paper.


  o F  

 
OVERVIEW


For my Department, 1998 was a year of continuing consolidation, strategy
refinement and implementation, and of a commitment to improve service
delivery.  Within this approach, my Department remains committed to
integrated rural development, with sustainable agriculture and household food
security as the dominant criteria against which to measure plans, programmes,
activities and achievements.  In this context we are encouraged by studies
showing that KwaZulu(c)Natal has the agricultural resource potential to increase
its agricultural production by 366% over present levels.  This would no doubt
be accompanied by increased socio(c)economic development, particularly in
terms of job creation.  This is critical in a Province that aspires to integrated
rural development for which job creation is a prerequisite.


  o F |
 
REVISED VISION OF THE DEPARTMENT


I am fortunate in being responsible for a Department that is progressive and
strives to improve its service delivery through a process of self(c)examination. 
When my Department and I assessed where we stood in terms of integrated
rural development, sustainable agriculture, household food security, and the
realisation of the potential for increased agricultural production, we found it   0        ""
!
!&&  
necessary, Mr Chairman, to refocus the Departmental Mission Statement and,
within this, to formulate a Departmental Vision.  May I share with colleagues
this refocused Mission Statement which now challenges my Department, and
I quote:

 X""
To promote, in partnership with relevant role(c)players, a progressive,
secure and prosperous community through economically and
environmentally sound agricultural systems.  We, in the Department,
commit ourselves to service excellence, productivity, teamwork,
transparency, equity, discipline and accountability."

Within that Mission, which is both challenging and exacting, my Department
now strives:

 X""
 To unlock the vast agricultural potential of KwaZulu(c)Natal by the year
2020."

I am justifiably proud that I can report that both my Department and I are
committed to the realisation of this vision.  In fact, we would like to embrace
that reality before the year 2020.


  o F 
 
SOCIO(c)ECONOMIC EFFECTS OF RURAL CRIME ON AGRICULTURAL

  o F l
 PRODUCTION IN KWAZULU(c)NATAL


However, for this vision to become a reality, there must be prevailing rural
stability.  If we want to accelerate the pace of agro(c)socio(c)economic
development with powerful injections of foreign investment, the return to law
and order in the rural areas of this Province is a pre-requisite.  Rural crime is
primarily the concern of my colleague, the Minister of Safety and Security and
his Department but, we believe that in agriculture we cannot escape the
consequences of rural crime.  Prevailing rural crime, and rural violence in
particular, is exerting serious economic effects on agricultural production in
KwaZulu(c)Natal.  For example, many small stock farmers have moved out of
these lines of production because of stock theft.  In 1998, some 15 914 small
stock units were reported stolen; an 11% increase over 1997.  What is
disturbing, Mr Chairman, is that the number reported stolen is just the tip of the
iceberg; the actual number is far higher since a great many cases still are not   1        ""
!
!&&  
reported.

I am sure you would all agree that the socio(c)economic effects of non(c)violent
rural crimes are serious, but those of violent rural crimes have devastating
effects on the entire rural community.  Rural violence tends to be seen as an
isolated act of violence against an individual and his family, rather than in terms
of the socio(c)economic effects on the entire community concerned.  My
Department and I believe that every act of rural violence is one atrocity too
many, and that attention must be paid to the plight of the farm workers after
such attacks.  KwaZulu(c)Natal employs nearly 18% of all farm workers in the
Republic, that is about 401 000 people, a number even higher than the 400
000 rural households in the Province.  The socio(c)economic well(c)being of this
sizeable sector of the population of the Province warrants the caring
consideration of this House.  Within the present climate of mounting
unemployment, it is paramount that these suppliers of work are seen as the
major contributor to economic stability and growth in the rural areas of
KwaZulu(c)Natal.  We cannot afford to lose suppliers of job opportunities through
rural crime.


  o F 
 
RURAL SAFETY AND PROTECTION INITIATIVE


Mr Chairman, with this as a background, and in the interests of both rural
development and agricultural production, I asked my Department to convene
and facilitate a series of Rural Safety Indabas to promote the general awareness
of the need for greater rural safety.  My colleague, the Provincial Minister of
Safety and Security, Inkosi N J Ngubane, has pledged his support for this
venture, and believes that these Indabas will facilitate the process of restoring
rural safety in KwaZulu(c)Natal.  In convening this initiative, my Department
received the support and encouragement of the SAPS, SANDF, and Organised
Agriculture.  I must, however, stress that my Department and I see our role as
being that of a channel of communication to farmers.  We have undertaken this
initiative to help restore rural security so that the farmers can remain safely on
the farms and produce the food that this Province so desperately needs if we
truly are to chase away hunger.  The major thrust of this initiative developed
after the Annual Report went to press, and will be continuing far into the
coming year, so I shall discuss this programme in some depth in this speech.
   2         ""
!
!&&  ԌMr Chairman, I was quite appalled by the press statement, "That white racists
killing farmers, says Winnie".  I think this is a very, very absurd statement to
make, and I quote:

 X""
 Farmers are killing each other as a grand plan to foment racism. 
Somebody wants to destabilise this country.  I do not believe we are
involved."

I do not believe that at any stage it was indicated that members of the ANC are
involved in farm killings.  I think it is quite an irresponsible statement to make,
to lay blame on any one particular group of people.  In fact, President Mandela
himself set up a commission to investigate the causes of farm killings.  The
findings are inconclusive, but there are ongoing investigations.  What I believe
we should be doing as a House, and as a country, is focusing on the positive,
focusing on how we could collectively abhor this scourge that is overtaking our
Province in particular.  That is the kind of contribution we should be making to
stop this scourge of farm killings in our Province.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):
  


  o F l
 
INDABAS ORGANISED WITHIN THE RURAL SAFETY PLAN


Indabas which we are facilitating are being organised within the framework of
the National Rural Safety Plan which is based on a series of structures ranging
from the local police station at ground level, through sub(c)area structures, area
structures, provincial structures, and culminating in a national structure. 
Indabas will approach the problem at sub(c)area structure level to encourage
community involvement, and since critical issues will be common at this level,
but might be different in the adjacent sub(c)areas.  We estimate that to reach all
the rural communities in the Province, we will need some 14 Indabas.


  o F "
 
ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF SPONSORING PARTNERSHIPS


In organising a complex schedule such as the Rural Safety Initiative,
considerable costs are involved for which neither the Department nor I had   3        ""
!
!&&  
budgeted.  Nor does the promotion of rural safety and protection fall directly
within the line function of my Department, but it is imperative for the socioeconomic well(c)being of KwaZulu(c)Natal in terms of rural development and
agricultural production, and those are the vital concerns of my Department.  We
have been greatly encouraged by the support of our private partners in this
initiative.  To date they have contributed in excess of R15 000 to the Indabas,
and sponsored the Moolman Lecture, which was delivered to decision(c)makers
and opinion(c)leaders to acquaint them with the results of research undertaken
to identify the causes of farm violence.  We have also had the promise of
meeting the printing costs of a user(c)friendly rural safety document.  In fact, Mr
Chairman, a draft of the document is enclosed in the packets that we have
given you.


  o F z

 
RURAL SAFETY FACT SHEET


This document explains the principles of the Rural Safety plan and shows rural
families how they can improve the safety aspects of their situation.  It also
encourages community members to play an active part in restoring rural safety. 
We are also working on the preparation of a Rural Safety Charter.  Once
finalised, and translated into Zulu and Afrikaans, these items will be printed by
one of our corporate partners.  I have approached the Provincial Minister of
Education, Kankosi(c)Shandu, for her support to distribute this document at
schools.  We will also distribute it through Police Stations, the Extension
Offices of my Department, and all agencies that wish to associate themselves
with these concerted efforts to restore rural peace and security to this
Province.  


  o F 
 

I am heartened by the fact that we, as an IFP led Government of the Province
of KwaZulu(c)Natal, have taken this initiative to restore rural peace in the farm
areas.


  o F ^
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!





   4         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):
  


  o F 
 
FOREIGN REPRESENTATIVES' TOUR


Turning to the foreign representatives' tour, which I mentioned in my budget
speech last year.  The restoration of abiding rural peace is essential for realising
the agricultural production potential of this Province, and is as necessary for
re-assuring potential foreign partners, investors and donors.  They also need
factual information about the sectors within which they could become partners
in development.  To this end, we took members of the Diplomatic Corps on a
Mobile Conference to give them "a glimpse of rural KwaZulu(c)Natal" and to
show them the opportunities that exist for investment in agricultural rural
development projects.  With the co-operation of the KwaZulu(c)Natal
Conservation Service and Tourism KwaZulu(c)Natal, we were able to promote the
amalgam of agriculture, agro(c)tourism and eco(c)tourism which, together with
nature conservation, constitute integrated rural development which holds a
great promise for job creation in this Province.  In this venture we were assisted
by the generosity of our corporate partners.

During the tour, Mr Chairman, we showed the untapped agricultural resource
potential of the Province; the type of projects being undertaken by the
Department; and we indicated the scope for future projects; and stressed the
need for partnerships and funding to unlock the vast agricultural potential of
KwaZulu(c)Natal.  The tour, I might add, was well supported, with participants
from 17 foreign countries and a representative of the Food and Agricultural
Organisation of the United Nations, and this has been followed by rewarding
contact with the participants.  We have received overseas delegations, and
have been able to show them what we are doing to promote agricultural
systems that are both environmentally sustainable and economically viable.  As
a result of the tour, officers have studied abroad in Israel and Belgium, and we
are awaiting the outcome of several suggested offers of assistance to specific
projects.  Members of my Department and I were invited to travel in India
recently, as guests of the Indian Government, to study agricultural production
systems that would be adapted for application in KwaZulu(c)Natal.



   5         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 LESSONS FROM INDIAN AGRICULTURE


Officials from my Department and I, were invited by the Indian Consulate to
visit, in particular, development projects.  They paid for our accommodation and
transport while in India.  I would like to take this opportunity to thank them for
a comprehensive programme, and most of all, for their exceptional hospitality. 
We are also following up leads with the British Government who have
expressed an interest, with the Netherlands and with the people from Denmark
who are interested in cotton production in the Makhathini area.  Recently I flew
them over the Makhathini area and they are quite keen in establishing a ginnery
in that particular area.


  o F 

 
WHY DID WE GO TO INDIA?


The question, Mr Chairman, why did we go to India.  Since the end of the
Second World War, India has reversed her role in world agriculture by way of
four peaceful, and I want to stress to the hon Mr Cele, four peaceful, but very
effective revolutions.  The Green Revolution, saw India change from being a net
grain importer to become a world contender exporting a diversified basket of
agricultural grains and allied products.  This was achieved by the availability of
cheap credit, improved seeds, the availability of fertilizers and the improvement
of irrigation schemes.


  o F N
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION.


  o F 
 
MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):
  I am going to be an
agricultural revolutionary.  [LAUGHTER]  This was followed by the Yellow
Revolution which saw similar successes in the case of oil seeds and derived
products.  Then followed the White Revolution in which milk and dairy products
played the leading role.  Then came the Blue Revolution which saw India
develop her fishing capabilities.  I believe that in KwaZulu(c)Natal we have the
undeveloped agricultural potential to replicate these peaceful and productive
revolutions, and must do so to chase away hunger, to stimulate job creation,
and to boost the provincial economy.

We also learned valuable lessons about water conservation and management;
catchment planning; irrigation; urban agriculture; rural(c)based, small scale food   6        ""
!
!&&  
processing; entrepreneurial training; creating infrastructural facilities;
appropriate mechanisation; availability of a very wide range of agricultural
training options; the successes of the co-operative movement; and the like.  All
that we saw in India are highly relevant to agriculture and rural development in
KwaZulu(c)Natal.  So certain am I of this, that I have appointed a committee to
monitor all aspects of the implementation of these lessons to the benefit of all
the farmers, and thus all the people of this Province.


  o F 

 
DAIRYING IN INDIA


I would like to in particular refer to the success that they have had in the
dairying industry, and what I believe we must do in our Province, is we must
investigate the place of a co-operative approach to permit small scale producers
to be paid for high quality produce, and to benefit from value(c)adding and
co-operative marketing.  In Gujerat State, the lack of a milk distribution network
and exploitation of the milk producers by the middleman, saw the establishment
of a milk co-operative.  This led to the establishment of almost 73 000 village
cooperative societies producing milk.  Now, each day, 550 000 farmers, each
owning only two or three cattle or buffaloes, for draft and milking purposes
bring two to three litres of milk to the depots where the butterfat is determined,
and, according to the result, the farmers are paid cash, within eight hours,
some of them immediately.  The milk is stored in bulk containers, and is then
transported to the co-operative's processing plant.  The greatest success of this
initiative is in its value(c)adding policy through which secondary products such
as pasteurised milk, dried, milk, cheese, buttermilk, maas and condensed milk
boost the profits of which some 80% flow back to the farmers.  The
government role in the industry is limited, and the industry pays annual taxes
of almost 1 billion Rupees.  From a humble beginning of two villages in the
scheme, the milk industry now produces enough to provide milk and milk
products for a population of a billion people, and export the surplus.

Dr Kurien, the founder of the scheme showed his interest and willingness to
assist KwaZulu(c)Natal in terms of skills and technology to embark on such a
scheme.


  o F -
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!
   7         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):
  However, a condition of
such assistance is that the people must identify it as a need, and it must not
have a top(c)down approach.  Understandably, we would have to agree to share
this knowledge with any other party in need.


  o F j
 
AGRICULTURAL CREDIT IN INDIA


While in India, we were also impressed with the various schemes that enable
small scale farmers to access agricultural credit.  My Department has brought
back further information in this regard, and we will be making contact with
institutions like the Land Bank and the Ithala Development Corporation, as well
as the Bank of Baroda in Durban to promote a better loan facility for small-scale
and medium-scale farmers.


  o F \

 
XOSHINDLALA


Mr Chairman, I now wish to turn to another issue which I referred to in my
budget speech last year, and that was the programme that we launched called
Xoshindlala.

Members of this House will recall, that it was only in May last year that we
launched the Xoshindlala (Chase Away Hunger) campaign to address the need
for food security in our Province.  To achieve this, my Department identified
seven critical focus areas.  Achieving food security will be costly, and the fact
that my Department's budget was so severely cut last year, meant that fewer
new projects were initiated.  Nonetheless, we were able to continue planning
the Xoshindlala Campaign, and have been encouraged by the full involvement
of the communities concerned and private sector organisations which have
formed partnerships with us to fund agricultural development projects.

My Department is sincerely grateful for the allocation of R46,69 million to the
Xoshindlala campaign for the year 1999/2000, and for earmarked allocations
of R39,56 million in the year 2000/2001, and R56,39 million in the year
2001/2002.  These generous allocations will enable us to realise the plans we
have perfected for the Xoshindlala Campaign.  I wish to thank the Cabinet of
KwaZulu(c)Natal for their leadership in this regard.  I am sure these thanks will
be echoed by the countless individuals and the many communities who will   8        ""
!
!&&  
benefit from this Campaign.

To date, all Departmental Regions have identified projects ranging from large
irrigation schemes requiring intensive infrastructure to community gardens
requiring relatively little infrastructure.  Some projects already have
comprehensive business plans, while others are still at the proposal stage.  We
await funding availability before a business plan is prepared, since neither the
present capacity of my Department, nor the R46 million allocated is sufficient
for all the demands.  All projects, I can assure this House, Mr Chairman, will be
needs based, and are developed with the communities concerned.  The project
business plans will be referred to the Xoshindlala Steering Committee to ensure
the co-ordination achievement of all the focus areas.  To ensure transparency
and equity, this Committee will refer all projects to the Portfolio Committee for
Agriculture for comment and recommendation so that if necessary, changes
can be made, if required before implementation.  A Project Implementation
Committee, consisting of community members, representatives of the
Department of Agriculture, and other role(c)players, is responsible for
implementing the project once it has been approved.  All agricultural and
development projects having a direct bearing on food security will be
considered, and for your information, examples of such projects are listed in the
pamphlet, Xoshindlala : Update No 1, which is enclosed in the packets.


  o F l
 
KWAZULU(c)NATAL AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT TRUST


Last year, I also mentioned my intention to establish an Agricultural
Development Trust to source project funding from donors and investors.  We
have met with major role(c)players and believe that the formation of this Trust
should be completed by June this year.  It has been confirmed that private
sector funding will be forthcoming for the formation and the administration
costs of the Trust for at least one year.


  o F ^
 
COLLEGES


Turning to colleges.  During 1998, 69 first year students registered at Cedara
College, of whom 48 proceeded into the second year of study.  Of the 70
second year students who registered in 1998, 23 received their Higher
Certificates in Agriculture on Graduation Day, (19 March 1999) and 37 are   9        ""
!
!&&  
continuing with, or repeating subjects in the second year of studies.  33
students registered for the third year, 17 of whom received their Diplomas in
Agriculture on Graduation Day, and 16 of whom are continuing with their
studies towards a Diploma.

During 1998, at the Owen Sithole College of Agriculture, 24 students
successfully completed their studies for the Diploma in Agriculture and will be
graduating, as will 10 Home Economic students.  As regards the current year,
the situation is not clear cut since some of the students still owe the academic
fees for the 1998 and for the current years.  The cut(c)off date for the payment
of all outstanding fees is now 14 April which is the return date of the students
in the second semester.  In the meantime, there are 43 first-year students of
whom only 13 are up to date with their payments; there are 30 second year
students of whom only six have paid; and there are 44 third year students of
whom only seven have paid.  It is unfortunate that unless fees are paid by the
cut(c)off date, those 91 students who are in arrears will have to be asked to
leave the college.

Mr Chairman, I think the hon Minister of Finance and the Premier made it very
clear that all of us that are responsible for departments will have to ensure that
revenue collection is maximised in all our departments.  Students at these
colleges are heavily subsidised, in fact it costs something like R25 000 a year
to have these students at our college and they only pay a fee of R4 500.  So
I do not think we are going to be lenient with students who have been given
more than enough opportunity to pay their fees, but at the same time I am
very, very mindful of the economic hardships that some of them go through.

Also in regard to our two colleges of agriculture, and all other such colleges
which are governed by Provincial Departments of Agriculture, a draft White
Paper on higher education states that:

 X""
 In terms of the constitutional provision tertiary education is a national
competence, and that all colleges which offer higher education
programmes, such as colleges of education, nursing and agriculture,
fall under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Education and will be
planned, governed and funded as part of the single co-ordinated higher
education system."   :        ""
!
!&&Ԍ(tm)Governance for the agricultural colleges may be delegated to the Department
of Agriculture.  At the moment a task team has been initiated to examine and
finalise the future placement of all 12 agricultural colleges.


  o F 
 
TRAINING


Turning to training.  Due to the drastic cut in the budget, the important aspect
of the training of farmers, advisers and departmental staff by the Non(c)Formal
Training Section had to be scaled down.  Nonetheless, this Section did facilitate
the training of 2 759 people in a total of 95 courses.  Another notable
development was that 49 departmental trainees completed the English
Elementary Oral Courses, which forms part of the Literacy Training Programme
in my Department.


  o F \

 
TECHNOLOGY DEVELOPMENT


With regard to technology development, my Department continues to
emphasise the research needs of small scale farmers, while not neglecting
those of commercial farmers.  The optimum planting dates of crops, cultivar
selection and tillage methods were demonstrated on more than 30 rural
properties.  Similarly, we conducted demonstrations on the combing of goats
for cashmere, on treating crop residues to improve the nutritional value, and
trials on internal parasite control in goats.  The first Information Centre is ready
to be established at the Estcourt/Loskop Office, and contains detailed data on
the resources and agricultural production potential of the area that is needed
in the process of farm planning.

The joint project between my Department and the South African Sugar
Experiment Station continues, and we are very proud of that partnership that
we have developed.  


  o F ^
 
DEPARTMENTAL ACHIEVEMENTS DESPITE THE 54% CUT IN OPERATIONAL

  o F @
 BUDGET


Last year I think hon members will be aware that we were faced with a cut of
54% in our operational budget.  I believe that my Department responded in a
positive and creative way to the drastic cut in the operational budget allocated   ;        ""
!
!&&  
for the past year.  The activities which I have highlighted, and others detailed
in the Annual Report, prove that the staff of my Department displayed insight,
vision, and dedicated commitment in their determination to view the budgetary
cutbacks as challenges to be overcome, rather than as obstacles to hinder
progress and impede the attainment of goals.  Their guiding principle was to
re-prioritise all activities and projects to focus primarily on food security as had
already taken place in the sphere of technology development, where the focus
had shifted from pure research to adaptive research.  The challenge was for all
staff to become highly pro(c)active in ensuring that all their work benefitted the
wide cross(c)section of our client base.


  o F 	
 
POINTERS FOR THE YEAR AHEAD


Mr Chairman, in summary, much of the effort of my Department has been
directed towards:


  o F  

 (c) X""
 encouraging integrated rural development, in which I believe we are
but one of many role(c)players;"

  o F 
 (c) X""
 planning for and promoting the practice of sustainable agriculture;"

  o F 
 (c) X""
we have implemented the multi(c)faceted Xoshindlala (Chase away
Hunger) campaign to boost household food security;"

  o F 
 (c) X""
 we are striving towards the realisation of the untapped agricultural
potential of KwaZulu(c)Natal; and"

  o F N
 (c) X""
 we have also facilitated the Rural Safety Initiative, in conjunction with
other role(c)players."

These are so central to our Vision that they will continue as major initiatives
during the coming year.  We believe successful agricultural development is not
an activity that can be undertaken sporadically.  It requires continuity in the
activities of my Department from one year, through the next, and the next.  To
this end we are most grateful for earmarked allocations for the following two
years.


  o F "
 
AGRICULTURAL STATE LAND


Another issue which I touched on last year, and I think I must refer to it this
year as well, is the issue of Agricultural State Land, in the Province.  I would   <        ""
!
!&&  
be failing in my duty if I did not mention to this House the extreme concern that
my Department and I feel over the continuing stalemate with regard to the
status of Agricultural State Land in this Province.  I stress the importance of
this issue, in that the disposal of thousands of hectares of vacant Agricultural
State Land would make available more land for previously disadvantaged
farmers.  It was with mounting concern that I must report that we are still
hamstrung and unable to act in this regard, and that the National Department
of Land Affairs still has not delegated to us the necessary Power of Attorney. 
In 1997, it appeared that the Power of Attorney to dispose of State agricultural
land situated in the provinces had been delegated to the National Department
of Agriculture which was in the process of delegating these powers to
provincial departments.  But, in 1998 I had to report that this process had been
stalled for many months and then had been withdrawn from the National
Department of Agriculture by the Department of Land Affairs.

For five years, Mr Chairman, our emerging farmers have waited patiently for the
sale of Agricultural State Land to new entrant farmers.  In my day to day
dealings with aspirant farmers it has become increasingly clear to me that they
are running out of patience.  It is my sincere wish, and that of my Department,
that this matter can be resolved as soon as possible.  Officials of my
Department will be meeting with representatives of the National Department of
Land Affairs, and I trust that this matter will receive the effective attention that
it demands.  I will also be meeting on 5 April with the National Minister of
Agriculture, Mr Derek Hanekom, to for once and for all try and resolve this
situation.


  o F 
 
BUDGETS


Mr Chairman, I now present the budget for my Department.  I hasten to once
again express my appreciation to my Colleague, the Minister of Finance, and
the Provincial Treasury for the increased budget, now, of R337,487 million, as
compared to R243,264 million last year.  The KwaZulu(c)Natal Department of
Agriculture has two categories of clients; some 400 000 rural farming families
and small scale farmers, and some 8 000 commercial farmers.  The greatest
portion of our Departmental effort directly benefits only the small scale farmers;
some effort benefits only the commercial farmers, while the remainder benefits
all the farmers of this Province.  The programmes and funding of the   =        ""
!
!&&  
Department can be classified into three divisions.
# (c)Y x    P "7
(c)P# 

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   "	 6 
 
                
  j E d
 
SMALL SCALE
FARMERS

  j E 
 ONLY
         
  j E d
 
SMALL SCALE &
COMMERCIAL

  j E 
 FARMERS
         
  j E d
 
COMMERCIAL
FARMERS

  j E 
 ONLY
         
  j E d
 
TOTAL
DEPARTMENTAL

  j E 
 ALLOCATION
- 6 
 
b 		1/4-              R195 068 000   T       R118 120 000   T       R24 299 000   T       R337 487 000- b 	 	'		-              57,8%   
       35%   
       7,2%   
       100% '		 T   # 1/2] x    P 7J1/2P# 
It must be noted that an amount of R46,690 million, which is 14% of the
budget, is earmarked for rural agricultural development and food production.

Mr Chairman, I want to give the assurance to this House, that my Department
will exercise stringent budgetary controls over the following standard items:


  o F 

 
PERSONNEL EXPENDITURE `	

  X

- :
`
$ R206 264 000
ă

The increase is the carry through costs of the 1998/1999 improvement of
conditions of service.  There was an under(c)allocation by the Provincial Treasury
of R8,2 million on the personnel expenditure for 1998/1999, and this amount
has been provided in this year's allocation.  The total personnel expenditure for
1999/2000 is 61% of the total budget of the Department, and due to rightsizing in the Department, indicates a saving of 15% compared to the
1998/1999 budget.


  o F 
 
ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENDITURE `	

  X

- :
`k% R25 974 000
ă

The normal administrative commitments of spending agencies, including travel
and subsistence costs, transport costs, postal, telephone, telegraph and other
communication services are included in this item.


  o F 4
 
STORES AND LIVESTOCK `	

  X

- :
`k% R55 641 000
ă

Expenditure relating to the acquisition of store items of a consumable nature
are included under stores and livestock.
1/4>        ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
EQUIPMENT 

  XC
C
  X

  X

- :
`k% R10 808 000
ă

Expenditure in connection with the purchase or hiring of store items of nonconsumable nature which do not lose their identity are included here.  Items
such as heavy and durable machinery and implements, hospital, laboratory and
scientific equipment, furniture and labour saving devices.


  o F .
 
LAND AND BUILDINGS 
C
C
  X

  X

- :
`& R7 209 000
ă

Accounts for expenditure on the purchase or renting of land, buildings, and
structures.


  o F 

 
PROFESSIONAL AND SPECIAL SERVICES 


- :
`k% R17 493 000
ă

Payments for services rendered by professional and specialised persons and
firms.


  o F 
 
TRANSFER PAYMENTS 
C
C
  X

  X

- :
`& R8 136 000
ă

Monies which are not spent directly by my Department on the purchase of
goods and services, but which are paid over to persons or bodies in terms of
an appropriation specified in the programme structure.


  o F N
 
MISCELLANEOUS EXPENDITURE `	

  X

- :
`& R5 557 000
ă

These include items not covered by the aforegoing such as claims against the

  o F 
 State, exchange rate losses, ex gratia payments, repayments and remissions,
etcetera.


  o F 
 
CONCLUSION


In conclusion, Mr Chairman, colleagues, I believe that each one of us in this
House has made a commitment to serve the people of KwaZulu(c)Natal, as my
Department and I have done.  I ask that each of you joins me, and my
Department, in striving towards integrated rural development in the interests
of steering the Province towards the attainment of the Provincial goals for the
year 2020.  In return, I offer to you a Department that has shown itself to be   ?        ""
!
!&&  
prudent and responsible; a Department that has initiative, and is pro(c)active,
innovative, creative and determined to see this Province achieve its goals for
agricultural development.

My sincere thanks are due to the hon Premier and the Cabinet for their
guidance; and to the Secretary, Senior Management and the staff of the
Department that I am honoured to represent.  I also thank the Agriculture
Portfolio Committee, under the able stewardship of the hon Mr MacKenzie, and
all other private sector partners, Organised Agriculture, members of the
Provincial Budget Council, and the Secretary to the Provincial Treasury for their
continued support.  In particular, I wish to thank those colleagues in this House
who continued to express interest in, and support for, all our agricultural
endeavours.

I believe that if we continue to work together for the good of all the people of
this Province, we will Chase Away Hunger, we will restore rural peace, and
KwaZulu(c)Natal truly will become the Garden Province of South Africa.

I now move the Budget of the Department of Agriculture for the consideration
of this House.  Thank you.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F N
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you very much, Mr Minister.  Before I call upon the
Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee, I would like to inform the hon House
that there has been some changes on the speaker's list, which has been agreed
to by all the Whips.  I would therefore call upon the hon member Mr MacKenzie
to address this House for 15 minutes.  Thank you Mr MacKenzie.


  o F 
 
MR M M MACKENZIE:
  Mr Chairman, hon members.  At the budget debate for
last year, we debated a budget which had been cut by 29% in total and
compared to the 1997/1998 budget this is a lot of money.  To realise the full
extent of this cut, it should be noted that it actually meant a 54% cut in the
Department's operational budget.  The Department had to reprioritise its
functions and services.

The cut was so severe that heavy machinery had to be parked off, and that   @         ""
!
!&&  
some construction of agricultural infrastructure had to be terminated.  This, of
course, meant that the operators of the machinery and the staff of these
projects had to be redeployed where possible.  We, as members of the
Agricultural Portfolio Committee were kept up to date, and in most cases the
staff thus affected was productively re(c)employed.  To productively redeploy
staff is and always should be what we aim for.  Where this is not at all
possible, the interests of the public at large should be considered and
retrenchment should then follow as the last resort.

I read the annual report of the Department, which covered the period January
1998 to 31 December 1998, and I must commend the KwaZulu(c)Natal
Department of Agriculture for what they achieved with this reduced budget. 
It is clear that the Department concentrated on food security projects and
functions.  Also in this there was the counting of the visits to farmers and the
farming communities.  I get a figure of 95 636 visits.  317 courses were
conducted for farmers and they were attended by 4 000 people.  More than 20
000 farmers attended demonstrations at departmental demonstration plots.  4
700 new clubs, that is women's sewing clubs, savings clubs, conservation
committees, art and craft clubs etcetera have been established in this year with
just more than 12 000 members.  202 new community gardens in with 3 136
members benefitting have been established.  And that means that the extended
family also benefits to the tune of 18 000 people, and these have just been
established in this last year.  49 local shows were held with an attendance
figure of more than 25 000 people.  Many new home industry projects have
seen the light of day, and they range from cooking clubs to making yoghurt. 
These are but a few that I want to highlight, and there are many more such
examples which can be found in the annual report.

It is with satisfaction and joy that we see the efforts of Minister Singh and his
Department in refocusing the functions of the Department, and their
Xoshindlala campaign did not pass by unnoticed by us in the KwaZulu(c)Natal
Government.  The amounts of R46,69 million, R39,56 million and R56,39
million for the financial years 1999/2000, 2000/2001 and 2001/2002
respectively for enhancing food security in our Province cannot be utilised for
a better purpose.  These funds certainly go a long way in fighting poverty, and
in creating a better quality of life for all in our Province.  We in the Agriculture
Portfolio Committee will also make our input towards equitable distribution of   A        ""
!
!&&  
these funds and in the prioritisation of Xoshindlala projects.

The criteria for equitable distribution of these funds is and will be based on
population numbers that are weighted by the different human development
industries of the various magisterial districts.  The criteria to prioritise these
projects will also serve to ensure equitable access, and is aimed at reaching all
six focus areas of the Xoshindlala campaign.  These projects will further be a
product of the needs of the communities.  I am very excited to be part of this
drive, and to unlock the vast under(c)utilised agricultural potential of our Province
whilst, at the same time enhancing food security.


  o F 	
 

A precondition to implementing the Xoshindlala programme is that the Tender
Board delegate the necessary authority to the Department to spend up to R250
000 or more utilising departmental economy committees, and other necessary
and prescribed committees where and when needed.  It will further also be
necessary and advisable that KwaZulu(c)Natal, through its Tender Board, requires
to share in the National Tender Board contracts.  These are very important for
effective implementation of the Xoshindlala projects.


  o F 
 
SETTLEMENT OF FARMERS ON STATE LAND.


Here I do overlap with what you have just heard from the Minister, but if it only
serves to emphasise the need for attention, I am pleased to overlap. 

It is with concern, Mr Chairman, to hear that the necessary Power of Attorney
is still not in place for the settlement of farmers on State land.  This matter has
been dragging along now since 1995, and still we see no farmers being settled
on State land.  We all know the importance of land for many would(c)be farmers,
and farming communities.  Here we have land belonging to Government, and
ready to be settled in many cases.  I am fully aware of land claims on some
land, but many areas have no such claims.  It is time now that we see some
farmers settled on such available land.  We know that Minister Hanekom
wanted such a Power of Attorney to be issued to this Province.  What is the
hold up with the finalisation of this matter?  I suggest that we all pursue this
as a matter of urgency.


   B         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 PURITY OF FUNCTIONS OF DEPARTMENT:


Government has certain core functions in governing the Province.  The Premier
has delegated these functions to various provincial departments.  The
Department of Agriculture has been given the task of looking after agriculture
in the Province.  It is disturbing to note that other provincial departments are
also involving themselves within the field of agriculture.  The result of this is
that funds allocated by Parliament for a specific sector gets spent on another
sector.  These departments also apply their different assistance measures and
this confuses and angers the would(c)be recipients.  It is extremely important for
correct application of resources in planning and implementation of such
projects.  Further to this is the importance of the correct after care to ensure
sustainability and economic feasibility.  It is important that departments purify
their services and do what they are tasked and trained to do, and not
something else in someone else's garden.

Where funds do become available, for example, agricultural projects, then the
receiving department should transfer such funds to the Department of
Agriculture, which is the correct department to undertake agricultural projects. 
This sounds a logical step, but unfortunately this is not being adhered to at the
moment.

In order to try and encourage our land users, if they be small subsistence
farmers or huge commercial undertakings, overseas dumping below cost of
production must be stopped. Irish butter, frozen beef, frozen chickens are all
dumped here at below our cost of production, which effectively puts our
farmers out of business.  They all undermine our fledgling new farmer
confidence and they reinforce the oft held view that land users are simple straw
sucking idiots.  Yet if you criticise farmers with your mouth full, you must
remember that without them no hypermarket or corner store would have any
food to sell to you.  This would be deliberate neglect of our farmers by our
customs and excise who actually allow this dumping to carry on unhindered. 
A country is only as strong as its farmer segment is healthy and productive.

The ongoing killing of mainly white farmers and their families continues.  A
thesis was presented by a Professor Moolman which cited as one of the main
reasons, a deep seated historical hatred which was caused by the   C        ""
!
!&&  
misdemeanours of the past which is in our history.  However, if you go into the
doings of the TRC, you will find that there is no way that all the wrongs of the
past, on both sides, will ever be rectified in full.  Therefore, these barbaric
attacks should fairly and squarely be put on the desks of the security forces
and the legal system.  Each farm attack ranks equally with each tourist attack,
and the irresponsible hate filled criminals who bludgeon, rape and smash in the
process of their crimes are bludgeoning, raping and smashing the whole
country, including themselves.  We are becoming rapidly the most shunned
destination for tourism, and farming is becoming the most high risk business in
the RSA.

When will our Minister Mufamadi join forces with Minister Omar under the
Chairmanship of Minister Manuel so that the damage being done to this country
is able to be measured economically, and therefore also a steady reduction in
the quality of the gravy which used to be on the train.

We read big signs of zero tolerance in traffic infringement.  Why is it that the
same cannot apply to petty crimes, to petty crop theft and so on?  It is entirely
unacceptable that courts are going slow, that the gaols are full, and this tells
us all that something is very wrong, at the moment, with the policies of our
ruling party.


  o F l
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION


  o F 0
 
MR M M MACKENZIE:
  Agriculture will go nowhere until dumping is stopped. 
To do so, it does not take much guts.  Agriculture will wind down if mealiemouthed, puerile sentences are given to farmer murderers.  Agriculture will go
nowhere if Land Affairs drags its feet.


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  What about the farmers?


  o F ^
 
MR M M MACKENZIE:
  In fact, we are fortunate still to have an agriculture at
all, because to farm today is very far from an attractive undertaking.


  o F -
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Order please!   D         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
MR M M MACKENZIE:
  The agri(c)brain(c)drain is steadily going on to Mozambique,
Zambia, Australia and New Zealand.  When these leavers are quizzed as to
why, the composite answer always boils down to, "We cannot trust nor rely
on our Government to give us the minimum security to carry on farming".

I wish to compliment the Department of Agriculture and singularly the present
Minister who has led his team into a pro(c)active force.  I also wish to thank and
compliment my colleagues on the Portfolio Committee for their support and
hard work during the past five years, and I hope for the sake of continuity that
they shall be there after the forthcoming elections.  I fully support the
Agricultural budget as presented.  Thank you.


  o F 

 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F \

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr MacKenzie.  On the list we have the hon
member Mrs H Blose to address the House for five minutes.  Mrs Blose.


  o F 
 
MRS H M BLOSE:
  Ngibonga kakhulu ukuthi kusukume imbokodo kukhale
amadoda kutshengise ukuthi amadoda asayisaba namanje imbokodo.

Sihlalo, ngiyabonga.  Ukukhuluma nje kakhulukazi ngabantu basemaphandleni,
ukubonga ukukhuluma ngabantu basemaplazini.  Kodwa ngizoqala ngabantu
basemakhaya njengoba udadewethu engikhumbuza lapha ngaphesheya.

Siyezwa ukuthi uXoshindlala uyawusebenza umsebenzi lo wakhe okushiwoyo
ukuthi unawo uyatshala, uyalima, uyathunga, wenza zonke lezi ezinye izinto
ezifanele ziqhubeke.

Sibonga kakhulukazi noNgqongqoshe wezoMnyango weZempilo ukuthi alekelele
afake esivivaneni.  Ibekhona imishini abanye abantu abanikezwa ngoba
okuyinhloso enkulu woMnyango weZolimo ukuthi abantu bathuthuke bakwazi
ukuzimela bazenzele ikakhulukazi abantu besifazane, ngoba ibona abahlala
emakhaya abahluphekayo abangayitholi imisebenzi.

Baba Sihlalo, ngiyabonga kakhulu la kuleli likaMthaniya kunezinkinga eziningi
ezisembethe kakhulukazi lapha emaplazini kusukela ngo(c)1994 sikhuluma
ngendaba yasemaplazini ukuthi bayakhuluma layindlini, bakhulume baqephuze   E        ""
!
!&&  
baze baguqe ngamadolo kodwa uma uya lapha emaplazini abo bayagqilaza,
bagqilaza abantu Abamnyama.

Kunabantu abangazange balibone ivoti labo ukuthi lashonaphi abacindezelwe
sengathi abazange baze bavote.  Sithi sikhuluma ngabantu basemaplazini ukuthi
abatshale basebenze umsebenzi wasemaplazini, akwenzeki lokho kunalokho
bayaxoshwa kuthiwe abahambe.

Ezindaweni zabo, esingazi ukuthi kuthiwa abayephi ngoba lelizwe (c)abantu
Abamnyama abanawo omunye umhlaba kulomhlaba esinawo owokuqala
owokugcina.  Uma sixoshwa la asazi ukuthi sixoshwa nithi asiye kuliphi izwe. 
Ngoba la elikaPhunga noMageba la siyofela khona futhi ngeke sigibele izindiza
siye kwamanye amazwe siyofela la.

Baba Sihlalo, ngibonga kakhulu, kodwa nje kunenkinga ekuseni namhlanje
ngithola udaba oluthi lapha emaplazini kunoBaba thina sinabantu abagcina
amasiko njengamaZulu.  Kodwa kunoBaba owathi egcina usiko, ngikhuluma
ikakhulukazi ngendawo yaseMajuba, ngikhuluma ngendawo yaseNgogo.

Laphaya eNgogo abantu bahlezi e(c)Robben Island.  Laphaya ngathi basejele
ngoba noma ethi ugaya utshwala besiZulu bayafika obasi babuchithe bathathe
inyama baginqe phansi igcwale umhlabathi.

Akekho ongangiphikisa kulokho ngoba ngizosho igama ngimbize noBaba
owenzelwa leyonto emzini wakhe, bahlezi ejele.Kukhona uBaba ongakwazi
ngisho ukuyokha amanzi ubiyelwa lapha ngocingo ngoba akafuneki kuleliyaplazi,
ubiyelwe ejele.

U(c)Chairperson we(c)agriculture kufuneka ayivakashele leyandawo ngoba
igcindezelekile ngendlela emangalisayo.  Njengamanje ngifisa ukuthi ngisho
ukuthi laphaya kulawamaplazi uBaba okade enezinkomo eziwu(c)30 iBhunu
laqeda lazithatha ezinye izinkomo zakhe eziwu(c)five lathi liyozidayisa ngoba
kufuneka akhokhele utshani.

Utshani balobasi bufuna u(c)R3 000 uzowuthathi loBaba u(c)R3 000 ngoba vele
akasasebenzi uthe usegugile akahambe ayohlala phansi.
   F         ""
!
!&&  ԌEngifisa ukubuza la kulaba abanamaplazi ukuthi leyomthetho uma behlezi ngoba
nithi niyababiza bayagoloza ukuza niyavumelana yini?  Ungangibuki Mr Nel,
ngoba okunye kuyakuthinta nawe kulokhu engikushoyo


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  The hon member is left with one minute to wind up.


  o F L
 
MRS H M BLOSE:  
Ngichaza ukuthi njengamanje okusiphethe kabi ilokho ukuthi
abantu basemaplazini bahlezi kabi kodwa la asive siqephuza sikhuluma size
sikhiphe amangwevu kodwa abantu basemaplazini abakayitholi inkululeko. 
Bazoyithola nini inkululeko?  

U(c)Minister wethu sibonga ukuthi uma sikhuluma naye akwazi ukulalela abantu
ukuthi bafunani.  Siyabonga sengathi ungaqhubeka njalo Minister ngoba vele ula
kufanele uzwe izimvo zabantu ukuthi abantu bafunani.  Ngibonga kakhulu
Sihlalo wami ngiyayisaphotha ibhajethi.


  o F  

 
TRANSLATION:
  I am very grateful that when a woman stands up, men react. 
It shows that even now, men are still scared of women.

Chairperson, thank you.  I will talk, in particular, about people in rural areas and
people on farms.  But, I will start by talking about people in rural areas as my
sister, across there, reminds me.

We hear that Xoshindlala is accomplishing its stated functions. It plants, tills
the land, sews and does everything else that is suppose to be happening.

We are also very grateful to the Minister in the Department of Health for
assisting and making a contribution.  There were machines that were given to
some people.  The Department of Health's major aim is to ensure that people
develop, so that they can be self-sufficient, particularly women because they
are the ones who stay at home, who are poor and who cannot find work.

Mr Chairperson, thank you very much.  In this land of Mthaniya we are
enveloped by many problems, particularly on farms.  Since 1994, we have been
talking about the issue of farms.  People in this House speak at length.  They
even go down on their knees speaking.  But, when you go to their farms, you
find that they enslave black people.   G        ""
!
!&&Ԍ(tm)There are people who have never realised the power of their vote.  They are so
oppressed, its as though they never voted.  As we speak about people on farms
saying they should plant and do work on the farm, that is not happening. 
Instead, they are being evicted and told to leave their land.  And we do not
know where they are expected to go because this land is the only land that
black people have.  When you chase us away from here, we do not know to
which country you expect us to go.  We will die on this land of Phunga and
Mageba.  We will not take aeroplanes and go to other countries.  We will die
here.

Mr Chairperson, I am very grateful.  But, there is a problem.  This morning, I
received information that there is a man...  We, as Zulus, have people who
uphold their customs and traditions.  I am talking about the area of Majuba, the
area of Ngogo.

At Ngogo people are practically on Robben Island.  Over there, it is as if people
are in prison because even when they brew Zulu beer, their bosses spill it. 
They take their meat and throw it on the floor and it is covered in dirt.

No one can dare deny this because I will mention the name of the man at
whose house this happened.  They are in prison.  There is a man who cannot
even go and fetch water.  They have fenced him in because he is not permitted
on that farm.  He is fenced in, he is in prison.

The Chairperson of Agriculture should visit that area.  It is astonishingly
repressed.  Now, I wish to say that on those farms, a man had 30 cattle and
a Boer took five of them in order to sell them because that man had to pay for
grass.  The boss's grass cost R3000.  Where was this man expected to get
R3000 because he was already unemployed.  The boss told him to retire
because he was old.

What I wish to ask those who have farms is whether they concur  with those
laws because people say that when they call them in, they refuse to go.  Mr
Nel do not look at me because some of what I am saying involves you.


  o F -
 

I am saying, right now what is troubling us is that people on farms are not
comfortable.  Yet, in here we speak so loudly and vehemently, but people on   H        ""
!
!&&  
farms have not attained freedom.  When will they be free.

We are grateful that when we speak to our Minister, he is able to listen and
hear what people want.  We are grateful.  We wish that the Minister can
continue doing so because he is in a position where he has to listen to people's
opinions on what their needs are.

Thank you Chairperson.  I support the budget.  T/E


  o F 

 


THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you very much, hon member.  I will now call upon
the hon member Mr T D Ntombela to address the House for five minutes.  Hon
member Mr Ntombela.


  o F z

 
MR T D NTOMBELA:
 Angibonge Sihlalo, neNdlu yakho ehloniphekile. 
Ngicabanga ukuthi ngikhuluma ngaphansi kwaloMnyango weZolimo, umnyango
obalulekile engicabanga ukuthi olayindlini uyazi ukuthi ubaluleke kanjani
lomnyango.  Ngoba kwakudla esikudlayo kuqhamuka kuwo lomnyango.

Okokuqala angibonge Sihlalo, ngibonge kakhulu kuMhlonishwa, uNgqongqoshe
walomnyango ngokuqhuba ezolimo kuleSifunda saKwaZulu ngendlela
enobukhulu ubuciko.

Angibonge kakhulu kumbutho wabesifazane ikakhulukazi wezinhlangano
zabesifazane, engingambala lapho ohola umbutho wesifazane
osenguNgqongqoshe namhlanje ngokuba alandele uholo lukaMhlonishwa uMinister Singh.  Ngoba bayenze yonke indlela yokwenza ukuthi umphakathi
ukwazi ukuziphandela wona qobo ungabheki kuHulumeni ukuthi uyoze
uphakelwe uHulumeni.

Ngiyazi ukuthi Sihlalo, isimo sezomnotho kulelizwe sibukeka sintenga kakhulu,
ngalesikhathi umphakathi ungasebenzi, lapho umphakathi udinga ukuba ulandele
isiqubulo esashiwo uMntwana waKwaPhindangene ukuthi umphakathi
awuzifundise ukuthi usebenzise amandla awo, nemisipha yawo ungathembeli
ukuthi uyokhangezwa ngasosonke isikhathi.

Siyazi ukuthi uMhlonishwa, u(c)Minister uzimisele ukusiza umphakathi
ohluphekayo.  Into embi ekhona umphakathi sewangenelwa obukhulu   I        ""
!
!&&  
ubugebengu.  Ayi wonke kodwa omningi umphakathi usukwazi ukuthi uma
utshale ummbila nawo uyingxenye yalowommbila wakho.

Uma utshale noma iziphi izitshalo ofuna ukuzitshala umphakathi wazi ukuthi
uyingxenye yalokho.  Lokhoke Mhlonishwa umphakathi la uzithola khona
usumadolonzima ukuthi usebenze ngokuba ukwazi ukuziphilisa ngoba
kuleyonsimana yakho oyilimayo kukhona abahlalele ukuthi bayokuphazamisa
babe umndeni wokho ngesikhathi sekudliwa, kodwa ngesikhathi kusetshenzwa
bangabi umndeni wakho.

Somlomo, abagcini lapho ngokuntshontsha izitshalo ngisho abaNumzane
nabafuye izinkomo namhlanje abanazo ngenxa yalezigebengu.  Iziklabhu
izigebengu, badla oKhisimusi badla mahhala.

Anginxuse kakhulu lapha kuBaba, uMhlonishwa uNxamalala ukuthi asize
angizami ukubajikijela ngamagama ayiziswana.  Kodwa ngizama ukusho
njengendoda endala ukuthi phela umuntu wawumchathe ngomuthi kudinga
ukuthi ubuye uwukhiphe lowomuthi ungahlali kuyena.


  o F 
 
TRANSLATION:  
Let me say thank you, Chairperson and your hon House, I am
speaking about the Department of Agriculture, which is an important
Department, and I think that everyone in this House knows just how important
this Department is, because even the food we eat comes from this Department.

Firstly, let me say thank you, Chairperson, let me thank the hon Minister of this
Department, for ever so skilfully conducting Agriculture in this Province of
KwaZulu(c)Natal.  

Today, let me thank the Women's Brigade, particularly women's organisations,
which includes the leader of the Organisation of Women, who today is now a
Minister, for following the leadership of the hon Minister Singh.  They have
made every attempt to ensure that the community is self(c)sufficient, so that it
does not always look to the Government to feed it.

I know, Chairperson, that the economic situation in this country seems very
weak.  At a time when the community is unemployed, it is the time when it
needs to follow the slogan expressed by the Prince of KwaPhindangene, saying   J        ""
!
!&&  
that the community should teach itself to use its own strength and muscles and
not rely on hand(c)outs all the time.

We know that the hon Minister is determined to assist the poor community. 
What is bad is that the community is now infested with a lot of crime.  Not all
of it, but a large part of the community thinks that if you plant mealies, they
too are part of benefitting from that mealies.  If you plant any other type of
crop, the community thinks that they are part of it.  Hon Chairperson, that is
where the community becomes reluctant to work in order to be self(c)sufficient,
because from that small land one can cultivate, there are people who are just
there to become part of your family when it becomes time to eat, and yet, they
are not family while you work.

Speaker, they do not stop by stealing what is sown in the garden, but even
men who are cattle farmers today have no stock, because of these criminals. 
Sheep are prey to these criminals.  They celebrate Christmas eating free food. 
Let me plead at this point with the hon Nxamalala, that he should please
understand that I am not trying to insult them, but as an old man I am trying
to say that if you administer an enema with medicine to someone, at some
point you have to draw it out so that it does not remain within that person.  T/E


  o F l
 
MR B H CELE:
  Njengo(c)Powell, tshela amaphoyisa akhiphe u(c)Powell ukuthi

  o F N
 amchatha ngani.  [Like Powell.  Tell the police to reveal what enema they
administered to Powell].


  o F 
 
MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip):
  Uyabona isisho esasithi Sihlalo, abantu
ngesikhathi bekhuthazwa ukuba abayovota ngo(c)1994 batshelwa ukuthi Baba
bayothola izindlu zamahhala, ukudla kwamahhala ngeke besahlupheka, ngeke
besasebenza.

Manje lobobutha Sihlalo, neNdlu yakho ehloniphekile ayiphelile lento
emphakathini, ngiyabanxusa Baba uNdebele uMhlonishwa ukuthi abasize
ukhishwe lomuthi kubantu kuyiwe bayotshelwa ukuthi sasikade sincokola uma
sithi yonke into kuyoba eyamahhala.

Sonke asibuyele ebhadini lokuba sisebenze senzele phela ukuthi kungabikhona   K         ""
!
!&&  
ukukhala....




  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Order please!  Order please!


  o F L
 


MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip):
  Ngiyazi ukuthi njengoba ngikhuluma nje ihlaba
esikhonkosini kwabanye abantu, njengoba ubabona behumuzela nje
bahumuzeliswa ilokho.

Kukhona isikhathi la kufanele Sihlalo kukhulunywe......


  o F 

 
THE SPEAKER:
  The member is only left with one minute. 


  o F \

 
MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip):
  Sengizogcina Baba, ngigcine ngelokuthi
kuleliminithi onginika lona uMhlonishwa, u(c)Minister uqale into eyisimangaliso
uXoshindlala.  Namhlanje umbutho wabesifazane unemishini uyathunga. 
Udadewethu lapha u(c)Happy unobufakazi balokho.

Izinhlangano zamakhosikazi zinikezwe ilo(c)Minister imishini yokuthunga.  Manje
bathunga ama(c)uniform ezikole benza yonke into.  Ngithi phambili Baba, Minister
Singh ngokuthuthukisa lelizwe.

Ngicele kuBaba uSihlalo wethu wakwaKhongolose ukuthi ayibo yobe batshelwe
abantu ukuthi kwakuncokolwa kwakungashiwo ukuthi akuqhutshekwe
kubenjalo.  Ngiyathokoza.


  o F 
 


TRANSLATION:  


You see, Chairperson, while people were being encouraged to
vote in 1994, they were told that they would get free housing, free food, they
would no longer be poor, they would no longer have to work.  

Now, that poison, Chairperson, and your hon House, is still with the public.  I
plead with the hon Mr Ndebele to assist in eradicating this poison from the
people.  They should be told that you were joking when you said everything
would be free.  

Let us all go back and work so that there would be no regrets.   L         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 



I know that as I am speaking, I am touching a nerve with some people, that is
why they are mumbling.  

There is a time, Chairperson, when we have to speak.


  o F j
 



I am about to conclude, sir.  In this minute you have given me

, let me end by
saying the hon Minister started something amazing called Xoshindlala.  Today,
women's organisations have sewing machines.  My sister Happy here has proof
of that.  

This Minister gave women's organisations sewing machines.  They are sewing. 
Now they are sewing school uniforms and everything else.  I am saying, sir,
Minister Singh continues developing this country.  

I am asking, Mr Chairperson of the African National Congress, that it is time to
tell people that it was a joke, it did not mean it should continue that way.  I am

  o F  

 pleased.

  T/E


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr Ntombela.  On our list we have Mr S V
Naicker to address the House for four minutes.  Mr Naicker.


  o F 
 
MR S V NAICKER:
  Mr Chairman, I want to firstly quote the Secretary of
Agriculture when he stated, I quote:

 X""
 Vision without action is merely a dream, while vision with action can
change the world."

In discussing job creation and poverty, we address poverty as not knowing
where your next plate of food will be coming from.  The statistics, that is 54%
of our people are living in poverty and enshrining the policy of the SMME.  We
must fast-track the release of fertile agricultural land to Amakhosis using the
expertise of the existing extension officers with the help of the South African
Experimental Station and Cedara to assist and direct subsistent commercial
farming within the rural community.  With this background it is common
knowledge that India is the world's scientific leader in the context of intercropping.
   M         ""
!
!&&  ԌIn terms of the economic scan of companies that intended acting as a catalyst
must be supported.  The viability of a partnership between India and the
Province of KwaZulu(c)Natal, Mr Chairman, which can contribute towards the
demand of agricultural hardware/software to address the agricultural needs that
will arise from the industry, the area of poverty could be effectively supplied
with quality fresh produce from fresh fertile land which is now standing barren,
and giving the Amakhosi the opportunity to become small, medium and macro
entrepreneurs whereby their fresh produce can be supplied to the many rural
hospitals and prisons.

Over and above, I understand, I have had calls that there is a possibility of the
closure of the Umzinto and the Verulam offices.  I asked the hon Minister to
please reconsider this very serious issue.

Secondly, Mr Chairman, very important, in your report you say you have got 8
000 commercial farmers.  Please take cognisance of the comment that I am
about to make.  Consider the possibility of a one(c)man commission as far as the
commercial farmer is concerned, the 8 000 and the interest that they are
paying to the Land Bank today.  The interest of the Land Bank is far in excess
of the commercial banks today.

The hon Minister is fully aware of the various categories when they come to
lending money.  The one comes under the gold category, the other one comes
under the silver category, and the other one comes under the bronze category,
and yet you find that the commercial farmer, is the one that has to pay.  What
is more, we must be aware that the exodus of the big farmers that are all North
Bound, beyond the boundaries of this Province, as to why this is happening.

Yes, Mr MacKenzie is right about the dumping.  Are we aware that vegetables
are arriving from Kenya into this country, and the question is why?  The hon
Minister is aware that this colony was regarded as the garden colony, and
today China has to export garlic into this Province of KwaZulu(c)Natal.  That
leaves a very, very big question mark.  Over and above, as far as the theft is
concerned, are we aware that approximately R22 million worth of sugar cane
is being stolen annually in this part of the Province.  Can we afford this, and
what are we doing about this?
   N         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 


THE CHAIRPERSON:
  The hon member is left with one minute to wind up.


  o F 
 
MR S V NAICKER:
  Finally, Mr Chairman, I want to appeal to the hon Minister
to consider the plight of the Northern Natal maize farmers who are on the verge
of a drought disaster.  The hon Minister is fully aware of the 1987 flood
disaster, and the 1992 drought disaster and the impact it has had.  Now we
have the heat disaster, and those maize farmers must be rescued.

But finally, the importance of that one(c)man commission to look into the Land
Bank rates, looking at the three categories of finance is absolutely important
and equally the importance of these big farmers who are moving away from
this Province to other pastures.  Thank you very much, sir.


  o F z

 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F >

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr Naicker.  I would therefore call upon the
hon member Mr Mohlomi to address the House for eight minutes.  Hon Mr
Mohlomi.


  o F 
 
MR T S MOHLOMI:
  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, firstly, I would
like to congratulate the Minister.  I think this is one Department that is working
in this Province.  But I must say that we have not read about that in the
newspapers so often.  Last year I did advise the Minister to employ somebody
as his PR person.  Seriously, we need that person who will be responsible for
dealing with the media, because although you are doing a lot of good work, we
are not reading about it in the media.  So I would still request the Minister to
do so.

The second point I would like to address is the security situation.  All speakers
here have indicated that we cannot have success in agriculture if there is no
security.  I agree fully with that statement.  But security cannot be viewed only
from one side.  If you look at the situation in the rural areas, on the farms,
especially where farmers are being killed, you will find that on the side of the
farmers yes, they are being killed, but there is no co-operation between the
farmers and the workers, and the farm labourers and you cannot expect
stability where there is no respect for farm workers' rights.  Workers are being
told that they cannot bury their dead on the farms, they have to bury their dead   O        ""
!
!&&  
on the roadside.  That is not acceptable, Mr Chairman, because that contributes
towards the tension which exists on the farms.  Of course, the criminals will
exploit that situation to go out and kill the farmers.  So we have to address
both sides of the coin here.  The security of the farmers and the security of the
farm labourers themselves, because without that we cannot have stability.

I can quote a very good example.  During the days of the so(c)called bush courts
or kangaroo courts, the communities themselves were able to stamp out crime
in the townships.  I know that for a fact.  They themselves stood up and dealt
with the issue of crime.  If you do not involve farm labourers to address the
security situation in the farming areas, you will not be able to be successful. 
The Police themselves alone cannot do anything, because they rely on
intelligence information which the farm labourers do have.  I can tell you that
for a fact.  If you go to the farm workers and ask them, "Who is the criminal
in the area", they will tell you, "So(c)and(c)so's son is involved in this.  So(c)and(c)so's
son is involved in that".  So without involving those people in the whole
mechanism of addressing the security in the farming areas we will not get
anywhere.

That should be coupled with respect for the farm workers' rights as well,
because really, if you keep on chasing people away you are increasing the
tension which is going to be exploited by those who are intent on perpetrating
their own criminal deeds.  So we have to look at that very, very seriously, Mr
Chairman.  We have discussed that issue in the Portfolio Committee a number
of times.  I know we have had visits where we have tried to intervene and stop
farm workers from being evicted from the farms.  But it is clear that we have
not done enough.  We still have to step up this campaign and try and persuade
our farmers not to carry on as they have been up to now, because if that
continues then we are not going to be successful in stemming the tide of
violence and crime in the farming areas.

The second point I want to touch on is the Xoshindlala campaign.  When the
Minister announced the Xoshindlala campaign last year, my words to him were:
"Well, I hope this is not going to end up on the piece of paper that it is written
on".  Indeed, it has not ended up on the piece of paper.  We have seen reports
in our Portfolio Committee which have clearly indicated that there is a lot of
progress in the Xoshindlala campaign.  But my contribution to that is that the   P        ""
!
!&&  
Xoshindlala campaign should not just address the food security issues.  The
campaign should also ensure that it empowers the communities by way of
imparting skills to those communities.  People should be trained not just to till
the land, but also in other skills.  For instance, how to manage financial books
and so on.  In that way we will be able to move our community away from
subsistence farming to commercial farming, and that is what I want to
recommend to the Department, that it should look at trying to promote
co-operatives.  These people who are living, especially in the areas of Amakhosi
should be encouraged to form co-operatives because although they cannot have
ownership of the land itself, because of the laws that govern those areas, they
could be encouraged to be trained and to be taught the advantages of forming
co-operatives.  The Government would then be able to assist them if they were
united and had co-operatives.  They could actually end up selling some of the
crops that they produce on those plots of land.  So I would advise that the
Xoshindlala campaign must actually impart skills to people so that we know
that in time the people will be able to live on their own, and their projects will
become sustainable.  They can manage their own books, they will know how
to sell, and how to buy products and so on.  So all those skills must be
imparted in the process of empowering people through the Xoshindlala
campaign.

The next point I want to touch on is the dipping issue.  I know we have had
these discussions in the Portfolio Committee for something like two years now,
where there was a threat that dipping was going to be phased out, because the
Department does not have money to provide that service to the communities. 
We are all very unhappy about that, because we felt that dipping was providing
an essential service, especially to the community that has cattle in the rural
areas, and of course nobody else can do it, especially the small African farmers
cannot really provide themselves with those facilities out of their own pockets.

I am happy, Mr Chairman, that the Department has thought about this, and of
course, it is going to continue, as the Minister did inform us in our Portfolio
Committee meeting.  There will be a lot of savings if the communities
themselves take over that service and run it on their own.  My colleague, Mr
Makhaye is out now, he actually said I must mention this, that in fact the
dipping executives who were working for something like four hours a month
and receiving full pay are not necessary, really.  If we want to effect savings,   Q        ""
!
!&&  
we have to start in the Agriculture Department so that we are able to provide
the muthi that people can use to continue with the dipping and continue
providing that service to our communities.  I am happy that the Department is
looking at that, and I hope that through our co-operation and the co-operation
of the Amakhosi and the co-operation of our communities we will be able to be
successful in that area.

One other point I wanted to touch on is agricultural financing.  The Minister did
mention that he is going to be engaged in negotiations with the Land Bank and
so on.  I think that is long overdue, Mr Minister.  It is long overdue.  We cannot
hope to promote small emerging farmers if those people cannot have access to
finance.  Finance is essential for everything.  What I would advise is that we
should look at inviting, for instance, other foreign investors into this sector.  It
is a very important sector.  Whenever we think of foreign investment, we look
at foreign investment as far as industry is concerned, but we forget about
agriculture which is a very, very important sector where we would be able to
attract foreign investment.


  o F 
 

I agree with the Minister that we cannot attract foreign investments if there is
crime and people are being killed.  People are going to say: "No, this is a high
risk area, I cannot put my money there".  But once we deal with the issue of
crime, the way that I have suggested to this House, we will be able to achieve
stability, and we will be able to attract foreign investment in agriculture.



  o F 0
 THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Only one minute for the member to wind up.  Thank you.


  o F 
 
MR T S MOHLOMI:
  Thank you, Chairperson.  In conclusion, Mr Chair, I would
wish to really congratulate the Minister.  I think he is doing a wonderful job. 
Also to congratulate the Portfolio Committee of Agriculture, led by the hon Mr

  o F 
 MacKenzie.  Mashina shina nawe ukunconywe  [for once, someone praises

  o F |
 you]. [LAUGHTER]  And of course, members of the Portfolio Committee as a
whole.  The Department officials have been very co-operative, and we have got
all the information we wanted from them.  They should continue doing that, to
help us to do our work properly.  I thank you, Chair.


  o F -
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr Mohlomi.
   R         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  I will therefore call upon Mr H Combrink to address the
House for five minutes.  Mr Combrink.


  o F j
 
MR H L COMBRINK:
  Mr Chairman, thank you very much.  The Minister has
mentioned before that our Province conservatively has the potential to increase
its agricultural output by a staggering 366%.  This, we have heard, would
mean an increase of between R15 to R18 billion per annum when compared to
the present R5,4 billion farm gate value per annum of agriculture in KwaZuluNatal.  The KwaZulu(c)Natal Provincial Growth and Development Strategy
actually points out that agriculture in this Province contributes between 15%
and 16% of Gross Geographic Product, if the downstream activities of
agriculture are also included.  This makes sense as these activities cannot exist
without the primary production of agriculture.  Our Province contributes
towards about 33% of the national food output and about 37% of the national
food export.  We furthermore account for more than 90% of South Africa's
sugar production, 46% of its confectionary production, and 25% of the
beverage production.

These figures quite clearly highlight the present economic importance of
agriculture in KwaZulu(c)Natal.  What is more important is the fact that
agriculture has a vast potential to increase its contribution.  This, and the
known fact that agriculture creates more sustainable employment opportunities
per unit investment, must be recognised and utilised to the optimal level within
our Province.


  o F 
 
LAND USE


Mr Chairman, on land use.  To succeed in unlocking the vast agricultural
potential, one of the main issues to consider would be the correct and wise use
of land.  We know that land differs in its ability to produce.  We further know
that these differences in the capability of land are determined by differences in
soil, and by the different climatic conditions.  We further know that we have
very little land that can be termed high potential.  It stands to reason that we
need to determine where these high potential lands are, and that we use them
for agriculture and all the possibilities.  I know that the KZN Department of   S        ""
!
!&&  
Agriculture has determined the land capabilities of the whole Province, and I
urge all decision(c)makers on the use of land to consult with the Department
before land use is decided on.


  o F 
 
INTEGRATED PLANNING


The integrated planning just in short.  We want to congratulate the people that
were involved in this whole process.  I am glad also as I remember that this
process was initialised by us here whereafter a Cabinet memorandum prepared
by the Department of Agriculture, and approved by Cabinet for the drafting of
the Policy.  What is now important, is the implementation of that Policy. 
Correctly applied, it will not only co(c)ordinate rural development, but even result
in the various departments doing what they have been charged with to do,
what they are trained to do and what we here in Parliament approve their
budgets for.  This cannot be emphasised enough, as the communities need
such coordinated development.


  o F 
 
BEMARKING EN WAARDE(c)TOEVOEGING


Mnr die Voorsitter, die mees suksesvolste landbouprojekte gaan hand aan hand
met effektiewe bemarking van die produkte wat geproduseer word.  'n
Effektiewe mark is daarom 'n voorwaarde vir 'n landbouprojek om ekonomies
lewensvatbaar te wees.  Daarom behoort 'n ekonomiese
lewensvatbaarheidsstudie die implementering van elke projek voor af te gaan. 
'n Aspek waaroor ek sterk voel, is waarde(c)toevoeging tot die prim+re produkte. 
Die Minister het ook vanoggend daarvan gepraat.  Sulke landbou(c)industrie-, in
of naby die landelike gebiede waar produksie plaasvind, sal geweldige
ekonomiese voordele inhou vir ons Provinsie as 'n geheel.  So sal vraag na
produkte toeneem.  Boere is vindingryk en as sulke geleenthede geskep word,
sal hulle dit opneem.  Meer inkomste sal gegenereer word met die verdere
voordeel dat sodanige geld binne die landelike gebiede ook sal sirkuleer.  Verder
sal meer werksgeleenthede binne die landelike gebiede geskep word (c) uiters
belangrik vir 'n beter lewenswyse waarna ons almal streef.  Daar is nog 'n legio
ander voordele soos minder kriminele voorvalle, voedsel sekuriteit, ensovoorts. 
Hierdie noem ek met die doel om te vra dat nou baie ernstig gekyk moet word
na alternatiewe maniere om sodanige markte en landbou industrie- in ons
landelike gebiede te skep.   T        ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
DIE VOORSITTER:
  U het net twee minute.  [LAUGHTER]


  o F 
  UKUK 
MR H L COMBRINK:
  Mr Chairman, I hope you did not make a mistake. It is two
and not one.


  o F j
 
DEPARTEMENT VAN GRONDSAKE


 UKAF Mnr die Voorsitter, dit is vandag, vir my 'n voorreg om 'n voormalige agbare lid
van hierdie Huis, mnr Rudi Redinger aan te haal oor grondsake.  Sy woorde was
dat die Departement van Grondsake 'n veraf gedonder en blits op die horison
is.  Ek wil graag hierdie woorde ego en s+ dat na vyf jaar, en 'n belofte voor die
1994 verkiesing, deur die Minister van hierdie Departement, dat 30% van grond
in hierdie land opgekoop sal word, nog steeds as geblits en gedonder gesien
kan word en geen re-n wat lewe moet gee nie.

Die ander ontstellende nuus wat hierdie Huis moet weet is dat hierdie
Departement die broeiplek geword het van die kommuniste COSATU/ANC
handlangers.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
MNR H L COMBRINK:
  Word ons mense op die plase en plattelandse gebiede
nie deur hierdie persone ge5ndoktrineer tot voordeel van hierdie organisasies
nie?  'n Sprekende voorbeeld is die Vryheidkantoor wat sy nuutste alliansie lid
opgelewer het.  Ek en almal om my sal met nuwe o- hierdie Departement
dophou.



  o F 
 AGBARE LEDE:  
TUSSENWERPSELS.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Order please!


  o F ^
 
MNR H L COMBRINK:
  Die prosesse is so pateties stadig en geen of baie min
aandag word gegee.  Na hoeveel jare in Zimbabwe word daar nou gedreig dat
gronde afgeneem gaan word?  Is ons nie op pad in dieselfde rigting nie?


  o F -
 
DIE VOORSITTER:
  U tyd is nou om, meneer. AFUK 
   U         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
MR H L COMBRINK:
  Is it totally finished, sir?  I support the Minister's budget. 
Thank you.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!
 UKAF 

  o F j
 
DIE VOORSITTER:
  Baie dankie, meneer.  Die volgende spreker is mnr Nel.  Mnr
Nel asseblief vir vyf minute.


  o F 

 
MNR W U NEL:
  Dankie, mnr die Voorsitter.  Dit is 'n voorreg om te volg op die
agbare lid mnr Combrink, en ek sal ook met hom wil saamstem dat dit 'n baie
belangrike aspek is wat ons op moet ag slaan, is die verbetering van
toegevoegde waarde op die landbouproduk.   AFUK Sir, unless we can add value to
agricultural produce, we are not going to get very far, because much as we are
overjoyed by the increased budget, and much as we have argued before in this
House that there is no activity where the Rand from the budget can be so
multiplied, as is the case in agriculture, whether it be through training, whether
it be through food security, job security and the many other reasons, perhaps
there is only one where there is a bigger multiplier, and that would be tourism.

But much as we can multiply our Rand that we spend in agriculture, we must
never forget that agriculture constitutes less than 5% of the GDP of this
country, and is falling.  The only way to reverse that trend is to add value to
the agricultural produce within the agricultural sector rather than in industry.

We heard of the revolutions in India, and I would certainly endorse that we also
need to follow those revolutions remembering, however, that a large section of
this country is arid, but remembering also that a large section of the small
productive and high rainfall areas, the high potential areas, are under(c)utilised
and that is so for many historic reasons ...


  o F |
 
MR A RAJBANSI:
  Will the hon member take a very good question?


  o F @
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Can the member take a seat.  Mr Rajbansi.


  o F -
 
MR W U NEL:
  Yes, all right.


  o F 
 


MR A RAJBANSI:
  In respect to what the hon member referred to India, is he   V         ""
!
!&&  
aware that a leading member of his party told the Indians in this country they
must be given one man one vote to India?


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Can the member respond to that one?


  o F j
 
MR W U NEL:
  No, that is totally irrelevant to my debate.  I will discuss it with
him afterwards, but he is welcome.


  o F 

 
MR A RAJBANSI:
  INTERJECTION.


  o F 
 
MR W U NEL:
  But in any event, sir, if I may continue.  There are high potential
areas.  In Nthlazuka, St Faiths, Makhathini, many of them under(c)utilised,
grossly so for many years for historic reasons and other reasons, and it is now
high time, and we are so happy that there is R46 million in the stash for
Xoshindlala to become involved and to make sure that we maximise, not only
the production, but all the empowerment of the people who will produce there. 
I would certainly urge that we move away from communal ownership and
communal operation to a corporate type situation, which does not mean to say
that the people who live there must not have a say, but once you group the
people together, they must elect the management.  The management must then
manage, rather than to cut the thing into interminable little pieces, none of
which are viable.  A corporate approach to all of these areas could actually bear
great fruit in a short space of time.

What I would also urge, and I must agree 100% with both the members who
talked about the "gedonder en die geblits op die horison", which has never
delivered any rain, and the Minister himself who lamented the fact that the
delegations had not come with respect to land and State land.  That is long
overdue.  We will lament when we look at the effect of the land redistribution
programme so far.  Whilst it has managed to redistribute land, the production
on that land has fallen because the backup has not been there, and because it
was politically driven, and a lot of the planning was also misdirected.

I would urge that as we go forward in redistributing land, that you start looking
at a partnership with the willing seller where you buy only around 50% of the
property, and force a partnership with the seller for a period of five or seven   W        ""
!
!&&  
years until you phase that seller out, and in that five or seven years part of the
arrangement must be a transfer of skills, a transfer of management skills, so
that the going concern can be handed over.  

  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  One minute for the member to wind up.  Thank you.


  o F j
 
MR W U NEL:
  Thank you.


  o F .
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr Nel.


  o F 

 
MR W U NEL:
  Another minute?


  o F 	
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  You have a minute.


  o F z

 
MR W U NEL:
  Sorry, Mr Chairman, I was just thanking my neighbour here, I did
not mean to sit down.  [LAUGHTER]  If I can use the last minute just to refer
to the Green Book.  That is one thing that does worry me about this
Department.  We have here a short course programme for the year which is
very impressive, but it is expensive and it is all centred around Cedara.  That
may be well for the commercial sector, but what I would urge is that we
stratify it and have simpler courses.  You have got an audiovisual unit.  Let us
take it in a bus around this country, to Cedara, to Dundee, to Umzinto that they
are threatening to close, and please may they not do that, to Verulam and let
us put thousands and thousands of people through very simple courses which
can be taken to where the people are.  It is absolutely useless if you want to
take the people to a course, even if it is free if you say that they must stay in
a hotel.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Your time is up now, Mr Nel.


  o F 
 




HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F ^
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr Nel.  Seeing that Mrs J Downs is not in
the House, I would therefore call upon the next speaker, Mr D J Mkhwanazi,
to address us for three minutes.  Hon Mr Mkhwanazi.


  o F -
 
MR J D MKHWANAZI:
  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman, for calling me
correctly.  D J, Dudu Joseph.  Joseph is a slave name, Dudu is the right name.    X        ""
!
!&&  
Thanks very much for starting with it.

First of all, I want to congratulate the Minister on a well prepared and well
presented report and for a banana and a biscuit to Xoshindlala kancane

  o F 
 ebisisiphethe  [to chase away the hunger that we had].  Thank you very much,
Mr Minister.

Kodwake Sihlalo, u(c)Minister ukhulume ngokuthi nansi imisebenzi, nansi
imisebenzi okufanele yenziwe, neyenziwayo emhlabeni, uphi lowomhlaba? 
Awukho umhlaba Mr Minister, umhlaba muncane kakhulu abantu abaningi
kulelizwe abanawo umhlaba.

Ukhuluma wena ngomhlaba lo omncanyanyana lona okhona iningi labantu
abanawo umhlaba.  Sayithola inkululeko yepolitiki kodwa umhlaba
awukabibikho.  Ngoba uma ukhuluma ngakhokonke lokhu iningi labantu
abangama Afrika ababecindezelekile abanikazi bomhlaba uNkulunkulu abapha
wona abanawo umhlaba.

Unkulunkulu wayengenzanga isiphosiso ukusibeka la kulomhlaba athi owethu. 
Noma kukhulunywa ngomhlaba kuthiwe uyabuyiswa sehluleka le e(c)Trade
Centre indaba yomhlaba ukuyilungisa.  Iyo lendaba kukhulunywa ngo(c)13%, u13% lo owasala oyimvushwana sincuzulela wona ngo(c)1913.

Kusukela mhlaka 1652 uphi lowomhlaba?  Kufanele kubuye wonke umhlaba
ubekwe la sikhulume ngawoke wabiwe kahle, futhi lokukwabiwa komhlaba
akukona lokhu ukuthi umhlaba uyabiwa kushiwo umhlaba uthengwa. 
UHulumeni engenamali kuthiwe akahambe ayothenga umhlabathi kubantu
abangeke bakhiphe noma yinye irisidi ukuthi bawuthenga.

Kunomhlobo wami ..........


  o F ^
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  One more minute for the hon member to wind up.


  o F "
 
MR J D MKHWANAZI:
  Awuzwake.  Asishoke ukuthi awuthathwe ngenkani
lomhlaba kubalimi, kodwa sithi akukhulunywe kahle.  Izigebengu lezi ezibulala
abalimi asihambisani nazo.  Thina PAC sithi aziboshwe, zijeziswe ngemfanelo.
   Y         ""
!
!&&  ԌNiyazike thina PAC uma sithi uma sithi izigebengu azijeziswe sisho ukuthini. 
Ngakhoke ngiyayisaphotha lebhajethi noma kambe u(c)Minister esebenza kanzima
ama(c)Afrika le awanawo umhlaba, naMakhosi umhlaba awusekho kanti
kwakufanele umhlaba ubuye kahle.

Siyolokhu sishilo uyoze ubuye lomhlaba noma nini siyolokhu sisishayile isipikili
ukuthi awubuye umhlaba ukuze wabiwe kahle wanele bonke abantu. 
Ikakhulukazi lomhlaba........


  o F 

 


TRANSLATION:  
But, then Chairperson, the Minister is talking about work,
work that has to be done, and the work, which is being done on the land. 
Where is that land.  There is no land Mr Minister.  There is very little land. 
Many people in this country do not have land.

You are talking about this bit of available land.  Many people do not have land. 
We attained political freedom.  But there is still no land. When you speak about
all this, the majority of African people, who were previously oppressed - the
real owners of the land given to them by God, do not have land.

God did not make a mistake by placing us on this land, which he bestowed on
us.  Even if there is talk of returning land....we talked and failed at the Trade
Centre to rectify the issue of land.  That is why they are talking about 13%,
13% of the remainder of the land that was divided amongst us in 1913.  

Dating back to 1652, where is that land?  All the land should be returned so
that we can have discussions about it and allocate it appropriately.  And
re-allocation of land does not mean what is currently taking place where the
land is being bought.  The Government, with scarce resources, has to go and
buy land from people who cannot even produce a single receipt to show that
they bought the land.  

There is a friend of mine...

Precisely.  We are not saying this land should be taken by force from farmers. 
But, we are saying let us discuss the issue properly.  We are opposed to the
thugs who are killing farmers.  We in the PAC are saying they should be
arrested and punished accordingly.  Those in the PAC know what we mean   Z        ""
!
!&&  
when we say thugs should be punished.  Therefore, I support this budget,
although the Minister is working under tough conditions out there.  

Africans do not have land, Amakhosi no longer have land.  The land was
supposed to be returned appropriately.  We will continue saying that land
should be returned until it is returned.  We will continue to emphasise that land
should be returned for proper allocation to everyone, particularly the land...  T/E


  o F 

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Your time is up now, 

Nkwali yeNkosi.


  o F 
 
MR J D MKHWANAZI:
  

Awu ngiyabonga ngiyethemba nomhlaba uyobuya

  o F 	
 ubuye.  [UHLEKO]  [Oh thank you, I hope that the land will one day be

  o F 

 returned].


  o F \

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, sir.  I will now call upon Mr W A Zuma to
address the House for five minutes.  Hon Mr Zuma.


  o F 
 
MR W A ZUMA:
  Ngiyabonga Sihlalo.  Okokuqala nje Sihlalo nginokuthokoza
okukhulu ukuthola lelithuba elimqoka okukhulu kangaka.  Ukuba ngikhiphe ilaka
lami kuleNdlu ehloniphekile.

Sihlalo, ngingathi nje mina lokhu okwenzekayo kulelizwe engilithandayo
nabantu bonke abakuthandayo ukuthula kuyabadumaza uma bebona izwe lisha
ubuhanguhangu, kodwa bekhona abantu okufanele balivikele.  Kodwa ungezwa
lutho oluya phambili.

Ngisho lokhu nje ngiqonde ukuba abalimi kulelizwe laseNingizimu Afrika
bayabulawa kodwa akubonakali ukuboshwa kwabantu abenza ububi obungaka. 
Lento kwabanye abantu bayibuka sengathi into yokudlala.

Umangase abalimi baphathwe ngalendlela ebese bethatha isinqumo esijulileyo
sokuba balifulathele leli kungabe kusalinywa amandla ayophela kubona bonke
abakhele lelilizwe.  Ngoba izitshalo eziphilisayo zingasekho.  Kuyofiwa
sekungasabulawana ngezikhali, nenyama iphele nya.

Mina ngiyabaxwayisa abenza okubi behlukumeza izakhamizi ngoba umthetho
ungekho njengoba kwenzeka nje.  Kubekhona abanye abantu abasezingeni   [        ""
!
!&&  
eliphezulu okufanele batshengise abantu abasemazingeni aphansi uholo lwabo
bese kuba ibona abanika labobantu ukungcola.

Bathi umangabe bekhohlisa uHulumeni ngoba bona benezihloso zabo
zokungcola ebese bethi uHulumeni ayifuneki intambo.  Ikhona phela uHulumeni
ezokwenza umsebenzi wakhe sokukhipha isigwebo esinzima esimfanele
njengoHulumeni ophethe wonke umuntu.


  o F 

 


THE CHAIRPERSON:
  One more minute for the member to wind up.  Thank you.


  o F 
 
MR W A ZUMA:
  Izikhohlakali zike zijabule ukuthi uHulumeni wenza into enhle
yokuthi isigwebo sentambo asiphele besho lokho bese bethi uHulumeni uma
ekhipha isigwebo sentambo uqeda amalungelo abantu kodwa bangabheki
amalungelo alabo asebehlukumezekile babulawa, badlwengulwe benziwe yonke
into engalungile.

Ngineqiniso lokuthi Sihlalo, lelizwe angabe selilungile umangabe kuya
ngenkulumo esishiwo abantu, abathi amalungelo abantu awahlonishwe....


  o F 
 
TRANSLATION:
  Thank you Chairperson.  Firstly, Chairperson, I am pleased to
get such an important opportunity to add my voice in this hon House. 
Chairperson, I can say that what is happening in this country that I love and
that is loved by everyone else who love peace, is disheartening. It is
disheartening to see that the country is going up in flames.  Yet, there are
people who are suppose to protect it, but as one hears, there is no progress.

With this I mean that farmers in South Africa are being killed.  But, none of the
people engaged in such heinous acts are seen being arrested.  This thing is
perceived by some as a joke.  If the farmers that are being treated in this
manner can take a serious decision and turn their backs on this country,
farming will stop.  The potential and strength of the citizens of this country will
end because without the produce that gives livelihood, there will be death, and
it will not be caused by weapons.  There will be absolutely no meat.

I am warning the offenders who are harassing other citizens due to the lack of
the rule of law that currently exists.  There are people in high positions who are
suppose to demonstrate their leadership to those in lower positions, however,   \        ""
!
!&&  
they are the ones who are corrupt.  When they deceive the Government
through corruption, they say that the death penalty is not necessary, so that
the Government can abolish the toughest form of punishment.  
The corrupt people are happy because the Government abolished the death
penalty.  When the Government uses the death penalty, they say it is violating
human rights.  But, they do not take into account the rights of those who have
been victimised and killed, those who have been raped and violated in all sorts
of ways.  I am certain, Chairperson, that this country would by now be on the
right track if we went according to the speeches about human rights.  T/E


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Time is up for the member.  Thank you.  I will now call
upon the hon member Mr J Waugh to address the House for five minutes.  Mr
Waugh, thank you.


  o F \

 
MR J C N WAUGH:
  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, let me at the
outset thank the Minister and his staff for making available the annual report
timeously.  That gave us the benefit to see which activities the Department
was involved in during the past year.

We also welcome the budget that was put before us, a total sum of R337,487
million.  This includes a column 2 conditional grant of R46,690 million for rural
agricultural development and food production designed to alleviate poverty. 
This represents an increase of R94,849 million or 39,1% over the previous
allocation.  We welcome this increase.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Excuse me, hon member.  Can you make use of another
microphone, there is a communication problem upstairs.


  o F 
 
MR J C N WAUGH:
  Mr Chairman, I for sure hope I will get some injury time.


  o F |
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  You look injured.


  o F @
 
MR J C N WAUGH:
  I do look injured.  We also welcome the fact that personnel
expenditure for this Department only constitutes 61% of the total budget
compared to the 76% in the previous year.  This year at least a larger portion
of the budget will be earmarked for rural agricultural development and food
production.   ]        ""
!
!&& Ԍ(tm)As far as the dipping is concerned, we are glad that the Department has new
ideas as far as this is concerned, and that they will not be doing away with the
dipping, and that they are rather considering other options.  We welcome this
idea, and we think it is a good idea to take the House of Traditional Leaders on
board and consideration then be given to put in place a system of cost recovery
for dipping material.

I would like to deal with the column 2 expenditure.  I do not think that we
ought to be concerned that this money will not be spent for what it is actually
meant for.  I am sure that the Minister of Finance will make sure about that. 
The figure for  the column 2 conditional grant is R46,690 million, as I said
earlier, this is for rural agricultural development, and food production designed
to alleviate poverty.  That is money very much needed in our Province.

My concern, however, Mr Chairman, is where in the Province these monies will
be spent?  Who will decide on that, and what role will the citizens of the
Province play in accessing these monies?  We did get the assurance from the
Minister earlier on in the Portfolio Committee, that the Portfolio Committee will
be kept on board as far as this is concerned, and we thank him for that.

After visiting the Tugela Ferry area, one also hopes that some of this money
will be allocated towards the upgrading and the maintenance of the irrigation
systems in these areas.  We have these assets lying there.  Let us make good
use of these assets and put them to the use of the people of this Province.  It
is a pity that in some of these areas faction fighting is also contributing towards
the downfall of these irrigation systems.  This problem we should also be
dealing with.

Mr Chairman, I am also pleased to hear that some foreign monies might be
forthcoming to assist this Department in some of its projects.  I think what we
ought to do today is thank the Minister for the role he is playing in this,
because if foreign monies can be added to this budget, even more can be done.

One cannot debate these agricultural matters and not react to what Mrs Winnie
Mandela said over the weekend.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS   ^         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
MR J C N WAUGH:
  I hear some comments from my friends on the right(c)hand
side, but let me quote, according to the newspaper, what she said:
 X""
 "

  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Two minutes more to wind up.


  o F j
 
MR J C N WAUGH:
  Thank you.

 X""
 Killings like those in the Western Cape will come to an end.  Killing of
farmers will also come to an end although we know some kill each
other so it would look like somebody else is responsible in order to
destabilise the ANC, said Mrs Mandela."

Mr Chairman, that is an utterly laughable statement to make.  But what
concerns me, is no leader of the ANC commented or repudiated her on this. 
So what must one say?  Do they agree with what she said?  Mrs Mandela is
the last person to talk about killing and destabilising, especially with her track
record.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
MR J C N WAUGH:
  We on this side of the House reject her statement and see
it as utterly irresponsible.  Why are we not standing together to seek solutions
for the crime and the violence within farming communities, even theft of stock
and theft of agricultural produce?  In all these matters we should stand together
and look for a solution.

Mr Chairman, in closing, I would like to congratulate the Minister and his staff
from the Department for a job well done and everything they have been doing
for us this year.


  o F |
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, sir, the time is up now.  Thank you.


  o F @
 
MR J C N WAUGH:
  Thank you.


  o F -
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  I will now call upon the hon Mr A Rajbansi to address the   _         ""
!
!&&  
House for three minutes.  Hon Mr Rajbansi.


  o F 
 
MR A RAJBANSI:
  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I know the previous speaker is a
very good friend, but of course, if one has to find membership of track record
clubs, his party will occupy the highest post.


  o F L
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Tell us about the James Commission.


  o F 

 
MR A RAJBANSI:
  The James Commission was a National Party conspiracy
against me.


  o F 	
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  He was a Judge.


  o F z

 
MR A RAJBANSI:
  Conspiracy.  That Judge used to write judgments before a
case had started.  Look at what the advocates say.  He was a disgrace to the
Judges fraternity in this country.  So it is to your people's disgrace, and your
people's shame.  You tried to destroy me, but I am on my feet because you are
attacking my party because you are all scared that we are ...


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Can the hon member refer to the Chair?


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F N
 
MR A RAJBANSI:
  Yes, if you talk of track record, this hon member Mr
Edwards refers to a James Commission.  I want to repeat for the record, it was
a National Party foresight that they won the Indian votes, and what they did
was to destroy the Labour Party and destroy me.  But they failed to destroy me
because Afrikaners told me the NATS are good at destroying people, what you
must do is be on your feet.  

He talks about a Judge.  You know that case of that invasion of a country? 
The Judge wrote the sentence and found people guilty the day the trial started
on a piece of papers, and that paper is on record today.  The trial took three
months.  The Judge told somebody, when he had had a lot of wine to drink,
that he was going to destroy me.  The persons who were appointed were
relatives of senior members of the National Party.  So do not talk about the
James Commission.  I can walk the streets.  That is why I did not piggyback   `        ""
!
!&&  
on another political party.

I want to compliment the hon Minister.  [LAUGHTER]  But what I want to say
is this, let his visit to India not be wasted.  India was a great importer of food. 
India is now a great exporter of food.  What we want to see in the Minister's
report is realisation of untapped agricultural potential.  Reform in this country,
Mr Chairman, started as early as 1992, but his party's senior members were
refusing group areas permits after reform started in this country, to ensure that
we level the playing fields.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Only one minute left unfortunately.


  o F 

 
MR A RAJBANSI:
  What I want to say today, Mr Chairman, is that the same
year the white man had his first agricultural show, the black African farmers
from nowhere came with their products and won prizes.  So let us not look at
the history of agriculture in this country to say that the white people developed
agriculture.


  o F 
 

We have enough potential.  The world has enough untapped agricultural land
to support the population of the world, multiplied by two as at 2000 A.D. 
What the Minister referred to is untapped agricultural land, and we must assist
the new entrant farmer.  Let us level the playing field properly.


  o F N
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  The time is up for the member unfortunately.


  o F 
 
MR A RAJBANSI:
  We will be the food basket of Africa and the destroyers of
the apartheid parties.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.


  o F |
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  I would like to call upon the next speaker.


  o F @
 
MR A RAJBANSI:
  Mr Chairman, I rise on a point of order.  [LAUGHTER]  The
hon member referred to the James Commission.  I need your protection.  I
challenge the hon member to ask the President to appoint a commission of
inquiry into how the TRC revealed that they manipulated commissions in this
country and used Judges for their own purposes.   a        ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)


THE CHAIRPERSON:
  The members time was already over.


  o F 
 
MR A RAJBANSI:
  The TRC in its report, how they manipulated Judges. 
[LAUGHTER]  What did Judge Mostert say?


  o F j
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Order please!  The member's time is already up.  Thank
you.


  o F 

 
MR A RAJBANSI:
  INTERJECTION.


  o F 
 
MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):
  Mr Chairman, I do not believe you should allow
the hon Mr Rajbansi to misuse the speaking time in this House.


  o F z

 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F >

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  That is why I have asked him to take his seat.  Thank
you.  Can I call upon the next speaker, the hon Inkosi Mathaba to address us
for five minutes.  Inkosi Mathaba.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Order please!  Behave yourselves, members.  Inkosi
Mathaba, thank you.


  o F 0
 


AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION.
 UKAF 

  o F 
 
INKOSI K W MATHABA:
  Moet nie 'n lawaai maak nie man.  Dankie, mnr die 
Voorsitter.  Ek sal net 'n rukkie praat oor hierdie Departement van Landbou. 
Ons bedank die Minister. AFUK 


  o F |
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER


  o F @
 
INKOSI K W MATHABA:
  Ngithi angizibongele kakhulu kwabangezwanga uma
ngiqala ukuthi ngibonge lapha kuMhlonishwa uBaba u(c)Singh ngendlela asibekele
ngayo lapha.

Okokuqala ngithi angikubonge Mhlonishwa ukuthi uma i(c)Portfolio Committee   b         ""
!
!&&  
ikucela ungumafika eshesha njengoba umfowethu uMohlomi eke wabeka. 
Nakumba(c)breathings ethu njengoba silana njenge(c)Portfolio kuye kwabakhona
ukuhlangana, indlela enhle leyo yokubambisana.

Nokhoke ngisho ukuthi kule(c)department yakho oyiphethe mhlezane ukhonjwa
kuthiwa ngena kuyona kwakhonjwa umuntu ofanele nowazi kahle ngezolimo.

Ngilapha ekuthenini Mphathisihlalo, umhlabathi uyinto ebalulekile kakhulu
empilweni yethu.  Ngaphandle komhlabathi angeke sibe abantu abaphilayo. 
Umhlabathi siyawusebenzisa kakhulu ukuze sikwazi ukuthi siphile.

Sibuya elantshini nje ingenxa yokuthi konke ebesikade sikudla kuqhamuka
emhlabathini.  Njengoba uMhlonishwa kade esiluleka lapha.  Ngakhoke kufanele
ukuthi umhlabathi omncane, omncane nomange umncane kangakanani esinawo
kufanele masiwusebenziseni ngendlela efanele.

Ngisho lokho ngibe ngazi izikhulumi ezingaphambili zikhulumile ukuthi awukho
umhlabathi esingabe siyawusebenzisa.  Kodwa akusho ukuthi lokho okuncane
sekufanele masingakusebenzisi.  Ngakhoke izwe bakithi alimile kahle imisebenzi
ayikho, uma ingekho imisebenzi abanikazi bamafemu behambile ayikho enye
into abantu abangaphephela kuyona kuphela ukuthi basebenzise izandla zabo
ngokusebenzisa umhlabathi.

Basebenzise izandla zabo ngokuthi bethunge njengoba kukhona lana ngaphandle
ingqephu ebekade ngiyibona lapha ithungwa ngabanye boMama.  Ngakhoke
ngithi ngiyakusekela lokho kakhulu Mhlonishwa enkulumeni yakho
ukugqugquzela oMame emakhaya ukuthi benze izingadi lena emakhaya ngithi
kuwumsebenzi omuhle lowo.

Kunabantu bakithi abasebenzayo benza izingadi abangasamcabangi umlungu
namuhla asebengabelungu bona msalofu.  Ngakhoke ngithi angikuncome Baba
Mhlonishwa. 

Ngifisa ukungena kuleliphuzu leli lokubulawa kwabalimi, ukufa kwabalimi. 
Angizimisele, angithandi, angizwisisi, angizwa kahle uma kukhulunywa kahle
ngokubulawa kwabalimi ngoba ukubulawa kwabalimi ukufa komnotho wezwe
lethu.   c        ""
!
!&&Ԍ(tm)Thina esingakaze size sikwazi ukulima kufanele masifunde thina kubona abalimi. 
Kodwa angihambisani nalokhu okubekwe umfowethu lapha uMohlomi ukuthi
kungenzeka kokunye ukuthi abalimi bathola ukubulawa yingenxa ukuthi uma
abantu befuna ukungcwaba abayitholi indawo yokuthi bangcwabe.

Ngithi zikhona phela izindlela esingahlala phansi sibonisane nabo abalimi ukuthi
sizalelwe khona la, ngakho njengamanje sifisa ukuthi asinazo izindawo zokuthi
sibeke abantu bethu.  Loko ukubulala abalimi akuyixazululi neze neze inkinga. 
Ngicabanga ukuthi akekho layindlini okuncomayo ukubulawa kwabalimi.

Mayelana nezindawo nemihlaba njengoba uMhlonishwa ebekile ukuthi kusukela
1995 kuze kube inamuhla, umhlaba kufanele ngabe uHulumeni uyayidedela
lemihlaba ibuyele ngapha ngakithi.  Ngithi angeke size sikwamukele siyolwa

  o F z

 ngazozonke izinyawo.




  o F >

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  One more minute for Inkosi to wind up.


  o F 
 
INKOSI K W MATHABA:
  Umhlabathi wethu owawuthathiwe ukuthi ubuye. 
Ngaphandle komhlabathi asingeke sakwazi ukuthi senze lutho.  Ngakhoke thina
Makhosi siyingxenye yabantu, ithina esingabanikazi balemihlabathi.

Thina singamemeza kuwowonke Amakhosi aKwaZulu neNatali ukuthi
imihlabathi yawo eyathathwa mabasukume beyifuna ngokukhulu ukuthula. 
Njengoba sizwa ukuthi eMsinga nje kunabantu abawu(c)   2 500 asebesele
budengwane ngenxa yezimpi ezikhona.

Ngakhoke ngithi ekugcineni ngiyayibonga i(c)Netherland mangabe izofaka......


  o F 
 
TRANSLATION: 
 For those who did not understand when I started, let me say
thank you to the hon Mr Singh for his presentation to us here.  Firstly, let me
thank you hon Minister for your prompt response whenever the Portfolio
Committee calls on you, as my brother Mohlomi stated.

Even in our briefings here, as a Portfolio Committee, there has been
co-operation.  That is a good way of working closely together.

I am saying, when you were appointed to this Department, they appointed the   d         ""
!
!&&  
right person who understands agriculture.  I am saying, Chairperson, the soil is
something of extreme importance in our lives.  Without the soil, we will be
unable to live as human beings.

We use the soil a lot, so as to ensure our livelihood.  We have just returned
from having lunch.  All that we ate emanated from the soil, as the hon member
was advising us here.  Therefore, we must use the soil appropriately, no matter
how little.  I am saying this with the knowledge, as previous speakers have
stated, that there is no land for our use.  But, that does not mean we should
not utilise whatever little land we have.

The country is not in a good position.  There are no jobs.  If there are no jobs
and when owners of factories have left, there is nothing else that people can
do to survive, except using their hands, tilling the land and sewing, as I saw
some women out there sewing remarkable and fashionable clothes.

Therefore, I am saying, I support what you said in your speech, encouraging
women at home to plant gardens.  That provides good work.  There are some
people who work planting gardens to an extent that they no longer think of an
employer.  In fact, they themselves are now employers.  Therefore, let me
congratulate you hon Sir.

I wish to delve into the issue of the death of farmers.  I do not understand.  I
am not happy because when you talk of the death of farmers, you are talking
of the death of our country's economy.  Those of us who do not know how to
farm, have to learn form farmers.

I do not agree with what my brother Mohlomi, over there, said.  He said that
maybe one of the reasons farmers are dying is that people cannot find land
when they want to bury their dead.

I am saying, there are ways we can sit down and have discussions with
farmers regarding the fact that we were born here, yet we do not have places
to bury our dead.

The killing of farmers does not solve the problem at all.  I think there is no one
in this House who applauds the killing of farmers.  Regarding land as the hon   e        ""
!
!&&  
member has stated, since 1995 to date, the Government is suppose to release
that land to us. We will never accept this.  We will fight with all our might for
the return of our land which was taken away from us.  Without land, we can
do nothing.  Therefore, we, Amakhosi, are part of the people.  We are the
owners of this land.  We can announce to all Amakhosi, throughout
KwaZulu-Natal, that they should rise and peacefully demand that the land that
was taken from them should be returned.

As we have heard, at Msinga there are 2500 people who are stranded because
of conflicts that are taking place there.  Therefore, in conclusion, I am saying
we are grateful to the Netherlands if it is going to contribute...  T/E


  o F 

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, the time is up for the hon member.


  o F \

 




THE CHAIRPERSON:
  I therefore call upon our last speaker, Mr M Kubheka to
address the House for five minutes.  Mr Kubheka.


  o F 
 
MR M A I KUBHEKA:
  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
MR M A I KUBHEKA:
  Mr Chairperson, first and foremost, it is important for me
to note that the Department of Agriculture both at the operational and the
administrative level is still a predominantly, if not exclusively a white male
show.  It has not transformed as yet.  This, I will argue, is exactly why it is
difficult for this Department to engage successfully with the non(c)white
emerging and aspirant farmers in implementing its programmes.

The availability of land is the key to any agricultural activity.  As we are
referring here to the Agricultural Department vote.  In this regard it is important
to note that although the Xoshindlala campaign which has been referred to on
a number of occasions, has been launched, the Department of Agriculture is
still failing to engage with communities who are the beneficiaries of the land
reform programmes, in terms of ensuring productive and sustainable land use. 
Except for the agricultural assessment reports done by this Department during
project identification phases of land reform projects which only serve to inform
the Department of Land Affairs whether the land that they are earmarking for   f        ""
!
!&&  
land reform programmes will be viable or not.

There are no plans that we are aware of, where the Department of Agriculture
is prepared to engage with communities after the transfer of ownership to
communities was what Mr MacKenzie has referred to as the after(c)care
programme.

It is also about time that we move away from the mentality that black people
only have the potential to do subsistence level farming, and not to engage in
large scale farming, so that we are not threatened day in and day out that we
might wake up one day only to find that there are no agricultural products in
the Hypermarkets.

It is the commitment and clear policy from the Department of Agriculture that
will ensure that we also have an increased number of previously disadvantaged
communities in the ranks of commercial farmers, which will allow them to
contribute towards the economy of their country.

The issue of the vast tracts of land which is in the Power of Attorney of the
Department of Agriculture is also very important, Mr Chairperson.  I do not
necessarily agree with the hon Minister of Agriculture in the Province, and the
Portfolio Committee Chairperson, the hon Mr MacKenzie that these land
portions are not disposed of because the National Minister of Agriculture and
Land Affairs has not delegated the necessary powers.  That will not be the only
reason.

The important question will be whether the Provincial Department of
Agriculture does have an Agricultural State land disposal plan which will
conform with the broader principles of the land reform policy, for the
Department of Land Affairs to say: "You have the powers that you want
delegated to you".  Do we have programmes that will conform with the broader
Land Reform Policy in the process of agricultural State land disposal
programme?


  o F -
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
MR M A I KUBHEKA:
  Finally, Mr Chairperson, I would like to propose to the   g         ""
!
!&&  
hon Minister and his Department to look at ways and policy framework, of
course jointly with the Department of Land Affairs ...


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  The hon member is left with one minute to wind up.


  o F j
 
MR M A I KUBHEKA:
  ...of encouraging the equity share scheme programme
with which most progressive thinking farmers seek to introduce people, who
for years have been labour tenants, to forming partnerships with improved
security of tenure so that they also engage in productive farming and do not
end up being labourers.  I thank you.


  o F 	
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F z

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr Kubheka.  I then therefore at this point in
time ask the hon the Minister to reply to the debate.  Thank you.


  o F  

 
MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):
  Thank you very much, Mr
Chairman.  I am sorry that the hon last member that spoke has the surname
Kubheka, which means go forward, but he took us all back in this debate, and
I will respond to him at the appropriate moment.

I want to thank all the hon members that have participated in this debate.  I
want to thank them for the support, each one of them, except for the hon Mr
Kubheka.  There were very constructive criticisms, if any, that were made, and
I am sure that my departmental officials have taken note of these criticisms as
a way forward.

A common thread emerged in the debate, and two of those common threads
are, one, the concern of hon members of this House about the crime situation
in our Province, particularly in the rural farming communities, and the other
dealt with land, which the hon Mr Kubheka also referred to.

Mr Chairman, I think hon members are aware, particularly those members in the
Portfolio Committee, that these Indabas that we facilitated are intended to be
fully inclusive.  The participants include Organised Agriculture, it includes farm
workers, it includes Amakhosi, izindunas and members of the security force. 
We believe that only with an inclusive approach, and a better understanding   h        ""
!
!&&  
between the farming community, the farm workers and other role(c)players, we
can get and find some kind of solution to the problems that we are faced with
in this Province.

I would really request members to attend the 12 other Indabas that we have
planned for around the Province.  We have had two very, very successful
Indabas.  I was pleased at the outcome, that at the end of these Indabas
community leaders who attended from respective areas were beginning to find
each other, because as the hon Mr Mohlomi said, unless the farmers interact
with people in the rural communities and talk about security in their areas,
unless they talk about how to improve communication in the rural areas, until
they talk about how to get telephones in the rural areas, how to get more
police stations in the rural areas and make rural people feel confident that there
is a rule of law, then I do not think we will succeed in solving the problem of
rural security.

As far as land is concerned, I think the hon Mr Kubheka is totally outdated in
his information.  I have been attending the MINMEC on Land Affairs and
Agriculture for the past two years.  From the first meeting I attended we had
a draft power of attorney that was tabled.  I am shocked that a person of the
hon Mr Kubheka's calibre, who worked for Land Affairs in the Vryheid office
for many, many years did not take any pro(c)active stances to engage with the
Department of Agriculture, so that if there was land passed on to people in
those communities, through the land distribution or the land reformation
process, then there could be greater interaction between Agriculture and Land
Affairs.  The position is this.  I received many letters from the hon National
Minister of Land Affairs and Agriculture after the event, where I was informed
as the Minister of Agriculture in this Province that a certain portion of land had
been given to beneficiaries in the community, and we were then asked to assist
those communities in agricultural production.

We have urged them, and I think there is some kind of an understanding now
between us, that before they redistribute land to communities, they should
interact with us so we could advise on the viability of that land for agricultural
production.  It is only through this interaction that we will be able to ensure
that we do not set up a whole host of informal settlements in and around the
Province.   i        ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
AN HON MEMBER:
  So there is a problem.


  o F 
 
MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):
  There is a problem, and
the problem is being addressed and that is why I say, the hon Mr Kubheka is
a bit outdated with his information.  Because the problem lies not with the
Department of Agriculture.


  o F .
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Order please!


  o F 	
 
MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):
  The problem lies with the
Department of Land Affairs in not timeously engaging the Department of
Agriculture in its discussions to ensure that those rural communities that reside
in those areas have a sustainable agricultural programme in place.

The hon Mr Kubheka also talks about this draft power of attorney.  Here is a
draft.  This is the latest draft that I have.  It is still in its draft form.  So there
is no concrete plans, and yes, I want to inform this House that we have
sustainable programmes, and State land disposal plans in place for the MNAC
and for Makhathini Flats.  In fact, the hon Minister of Land Affairs, together
with the hon Mr Zuma and I are having a discussion on 5 April about
Makhathini and how we should deal with the redistribution of Makhathini.  I
believe that the Jozini/Makhathini area has the greatest potential for agricultural
development in the Province.  With all the water that is available there, we
really need to tap those resources that are available, and we hope that we can
sort out the land issues in that particular area.


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  For all parties?


  o F |
 
MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):
  For all parties.  Agriculture
has been an area where all parties benefit, all individuals who are needy will
benefit from the advice that the Department of Agriculture offers.

Mr Chairman, I think what the hon Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee
indicated about State agricultural land is important for us to all note.  We need
a concerted effort to get to grips with this, and I am sure that we will have the   j        ""
!
!&&  
support of the Portfolio Committee in impressing upon Land Affairs the need for
us to put this issue behind us.

The hon Mr MacKenzie referred to the question of dumping.  Yes, it is a matter
of great concern to us that products come in very cheaply.  In fact, not only in
the agricultural sector, but also with textiles that are coming in very, very
cheap into this country.  There are many, many textile manufacturing
companies that have closed down, and thousands of people are jobless.  We
should not allow a similar kind of situation to exist in the agricultural sector. 
So yes, we are concerned.  I have asked the hon Minister Derek Hanekom to
address a meeting in the Dundee area, which is scheduled for some three to
four weeks from now, and to particularly talk about dumping, customs duties
etcetera.  So we are finding ways of ensuring that our communities here
continue in the agricultural sector, and that we do not get immersed with cheap
products from outside our country.

The hon Mrs Blose, I would really ask her, she is a very valued member of the
Portfolio Committee, that if she has information that she tried to pass onto this
House today, that she passes it onto the Chairperson of the Agricultural
Portfolio Committee.  And knowing him, and knowing the way the Agriculture
Portfolio Committee conducts its business, I am sure they would give these
matters their immediate attention.  But I think a telling point that she
mentioned, to which few other hon members referred to, is about the Minister
of Health giving sewing machines.  We in the Department of Agriculture last
year bought 150 sewing machines that we gave to needy communities.


  o F 
 
MRS H M BLOSE:
  INTERJECTION.


  o F 
 
MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):
  No, I am not saying that
you said that.  But what is required, Mr Chairman, is a co(c)ordinated approach
to development in our rural areas, and until now I do not believe we have had
this integrated approach.  Different departments sometimes do the same things
in the rural areas.  I am very pleased that the hon the Premier, in his opening
address to Parliament, indicated to us that there will be a poverty alleviation
unit based in the office of the Premier.  I think that is going to assist all of us
in ensuring that there is a co(c)ordinated effort, and that there is not a duplication
of activities by various departments.   k        ""
!
!&&Ԍ(tm)I did not quite understand some of the things that the hon Mrs Blose said, but
I think the cornerstone was communication and good relations at all levels.  I
believe we really need this, not only as members of the House, but also to
encourage members of the community to maintain good relations.

The hon Mr Ntombela.  Yes, he is worried about crime and security.  I hope
that these Indabas will help.  We need farm watches.  Farm watches have been
a preserve of generally the white farmers, but I think we need in our rural
communities to have these farm watches, so that people are vigilant about
what is happening in the farming areas.  We cannot allow people to steal crops
and the like, that you mentioned.  It is important that we get together and talk
about how we can promote farm watches, and how we can get the police and
security to assist us in this project.

The hon Mr Naicker, the closure of Umzinto and Verulam offices.  No, that is
not going to happen.  They were district offices, they now will be ward offices. 
We have restructured the activities of the Department, and the way we work,
and Verulam and Umzinto will still exist, and I hope Mr Nel takes note of that,
because he also indicated that he was concerned about what was going to
happen in Umzinto.  I am glad that you are concerned about what is happening
in my area.  It is a sign of the support that you show for the Minister who
comes from the Umzinto area.  Thank you, gentlemen.

As far as the maize farmers are concerned, we did have some rain over the
weekend, but we have been informed that this was not enough and we are
certainly going to take this issue up with the National Minister to see if there
is any way to come to the assistance of these farmers, particularly the rural
farmers, because we know that the subsistence farmers rely heavily on maize
for food production.  We are going to be looking into this matter.


  o F |
 


MR S V NAICKER:
  Mr Chairman, will the hon Minister take a question?


  o F @
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Hon Mr Minister.


  o F -
 
MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):
  Yes, thank you.


  o F 
 
MR S V NAICKER:
  Yes, sir.  The Minister is aware of the 1984 drought.  He   l         ""
!
!&&  
is aware of the 1987 flood disaster.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
MR S V NAICKER:
  It is a question.  So is he going to take all that into account
up till the 1992 drought disaster and then address the maize farmers?


  o F .
 
MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):
  Mr Chairman, thank you
for that question.  I am going to leave the whole issue of addressing this
problem to the Portfolio Committee, and I trust that they will come up with
some kind of proposal that we can put to the National Minister.  But just to
remind this House that I do not think the schemes that were available in the
past can be made available to us now, because of the limited resources that we
have.

Thank you, hon Mr Mohlomi, for your support.  You raised the aspect of farm
workers' rights.  I think you are absolutely correct, that we need everybody to
be involved when we are trying to find solutions.

Xoshindlala, forming of co(c)operatives.  We have learnt a lot from India.  We are
as a chief directorate of agriculture and rural development fully involved in
assisting people to form co(c)operatives, and I believe as you do, and some other
hon members of this House, that it is an important way to get our people
together and to enhance food production.  Also, it will help in value adding. 
The hon Mr Nel referred to that, value adding.  One of the things that we do
not want to do in agriculture is just concentrate on the production side of
agriculture.  We may be able to produce as much as we like, but if we do not
have a marketing strategy in place, it is going to take us nowhere.  So we are
really going to be focusing on marketing the products, not only locally, but
nationally and even internationally.

Mnr Combrink, dankie.  He is not here, but I would like to thank him for his
contribution.  


  o F -
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION


  o F 
 
MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):
  Ek verstaan 'n bietjie   m         ""
!
!&&  
Afrikaans.


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):
  As far as dipping is
concerned, we are looking forward to the interaction with the House of
Traditional Leaders and other role(c)players in this, and I am sure at the end of
the day we will be able to find a solution so that dipping will continue in this
Province.  We realise the impact that no dipping will have on the people who
own cattle.

Mr Nel, thank you very much for your contribution.  Transfer of skills, you are
quite right.  In fact, there is a farm that was bought in the days of the House
of Delegates, and I think the hon Mr Naicker will be aware of this, it is Sondela
Farm which we have not as yet redistributed to people.  We have signed a
contract with Tongaat(c)Hulett to manage the farm for the next three to five
years.  They will be improving the farm, and over a period of time we will be
selling off small lots of sugar cane plantation to needy people in that area, and
the necessary skills for them to continue production will be transferred to these
beneficiaries.  But it is an important point that you make.

The hon Mr Zuma also touched on criminality and the need for capital.  As I
indicated, we are looking for innovative ways of financing our farmers, and we
take on board his concerns.

The hon Mr Waugh, faction fighting.  Yes, we are experiencing faction fighting
in some areas, but here again, if we get together, if we can talk to each other
then I think we will be able to solve these problems.

The hon Mr Rajbansi is out of the chamber at the moment.  He used up much
of his time on other issues, but I just want to remind him that the elephant is
coming.  We will be there soon, and I want to thank him for his contribution.

Ndabezitha, Inkosi Mathaba, your concern, we have also taken note of.  The
killing of farmers and the land issues.

I think I have dealt with the hon Mr Kubheka in terms of the general comments   n         ""
!
!&&  
that I have made on land affairs, but I think that the expertise that he should
have acquired while working at the Vryheid office of Land Affairs will be very,
very important and I am sure that the hon Mr MacKenzie will allow him to sit
in, in his meetings, and to make some contribution to the debate on land affairs
and in particular and how we should deal with the whole question of land
distribution and enhancing agricultural production.

Mr Chairman, thank you very much.  I thank all the hon members for their
support, and I look forward to their continued co(c)operation over the next year
or so.  Thank you very much.


  o F 	
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F z

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, hon Minister.  This then brings us to the end
of vote 3.  I will therefore call upon my colleague, the hon Mr Mohlomi to take
over the Chair and to deal with vote 13, which is Social Welfare and Pensions. 
Thank you.


  o F 
 
MR T S MOHLOMI TAKES THE CHAIR



  o F 
 
KWAZULU(c)NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL, 1999/2000





  o F l
 


VOTE 13: DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL WELFARE AND POPULATION
DEVELOPMENT


  o F 
 THE CHAIRPERSON:
  We are now going to deal with vote 13, Social Welfare. 
I now wish to call upon the hon Minister Mntwana Zulu to address the House.


  o F 
 


PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare):
  


  o F |
 
1. X""
 INTRODUCTION
"

Mr Chairman, a question we must continuously ask ourselves is why we
progressively need social welfare in our society.  The purpose of social welfare
in the main, is to co(c)ordinate resources that the Government and other service
providers wish to utilise to alleviate and eradicate poverty.
   o         ""
!
!&&  ԌSocial welfare addresses, amongst other issues, the excruciating pain of going
to bed without food; the effects of homelessness and unemployment; and all
the trauma that follows from such gnawing circumstances.

Unfortunately, there will always be poverty in our midst due to imperfect
systems, corruption, inefficiency and inadequate resources to provide effective
interventions.

The State has the responsibility to provide a safety net for its citizens.  The
safety net is designed to prevent those vulnerable to poverty from languishing.

My emphatic message today will be to highlight that the State has an additional
responsibility to enable citizens to function to their maximum capacity.


  o F \

 

In this regard, my Department is relentlessly going to focus on social
development.  The State cannot eradicate poverty by concentrating all its
efforts and scarce monies on providing hand outs.

More succinctly, the Department of Social Welfare in this Province is
committed to:


  o F 
 1. X""
 protecting the vulnerable;"

  o F l
 2. X""
 strengthening the weak; and"

  o F N
 3. X""
fostering self(c)reliance."


  o F 
 


2. X""
 MISSION STATEMENT
"

The mission of the Department of Social Welfare and Population Development
is to develop an empowered and motivated staff plus a conducive environment
in order to tackle and achieve the following:

The provision, promotion and development of comprehensive, people(c)centred
social welfare services to the communities.  The whole aim of this being to
maximise the inherent potential of every individual in KwaZulu(c)Natal.



   p         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 3. X""
 KEY GOALS
"

The key goals of this Department can be summarised as follows:


  o F 
 (c) X""
 social welfare services and programmes aimed at improving care, as
well as intensifying development;"


  o F .
 (c) X""
 a well grounded, uniform, transforming and integrated institutional
framework;"


  o F 
 (c) X""
 social integration and a provision to address conflicts which may exist
in any aspect of welfare delivery;"


  o F z

 (c) X""
 equitable access to the Department's resources and services in both
urban and rural areas; and the motivation of staff in the Regional
Offices to be professional and responsive to needs;"


  o F 
 (c) X""
 support to the poorest, taking care of the most vulnerable members of
society and helping prevent the setting in of perpetual dependency on
government grants."


  o F 
 
4. X""
 KEY POLICY OBJECTIVES
"

The Key Policy Objectives are as follows:


  o F 
 (c) X""
 to eliminate inequalities and improve access to the Department's
resources and services with special focus on rural areas and informal
settlements in urban areas;"


  o F 
 (c) X""
 to facilitate provision of appropriate developmental social welfare
services, educating people in principles of development and socialise
them into accepting that Social Welfare and Population Development
can no longer spend all its budget on the provision of care;"


  o F -
 (c) X""
 to promote and strengthen partnerships between government, the
community, the society, religious groups and the private sector with
respect to the delivery of services.  The challenges for 1999/2000   q        ""
!
!&&  
include the way the Department effectively delivers services where
there is inadequate funding, insufficient management structures and
capacity; insufficient finance and personnel administration and a high
level of fraudulent activity."

Chairperson, in our Department we fully realise that our success must be
premised on a sound financial discipline and the implementation of the
Provincial Performance Plan.  In order to ensure a sound financial discipline and
efficient management of the affairs of the Department, we have engaged in the
re(c)registration of beneficiaries of social security benefits.  The aim of this
exercise is to ensure that only names of legitimate pensioners remain in the
pensions' system.  Even though the procedure is inconvenient for the
beneficiaries, they have been very co(c)operative as they realise that the limited
financial resources at our disposal have to be utilised prudently.  The
Department is also interacting with the Fraud Task Team on a monthly basis. 
In spite of the difficulties in providing suitable and adequate transport for this
Team, serious cases involving millions of Rands have been instituted and
implicated civil servants have been prosecuted.


  o F 
 
5. X""
 STRATEGY
"

My Department's strategy rests on the recommendations of the White Paper
on Welfare.  The White Paper emphasises a major shift from individual
counselling and institutional care to developmental social welfare.  While we
recognise that we need to provide a safety net for those who have no capacity
for self(c)reliance and who are temporarily incapacitated by poverty and its
related factors, we still depend heavily on people's potential for attaining selfreliance.  The paradigm shift as advocated by the White Paper has, however,
encouraged us to utilise and help develop the potential of the beneficiaries to
be self(c)reliant.

When is self(c)reliance attained?  Self(c)reliance is attained when people are
empowered and engaged in sustainable development initiatives.  It is only
through adopting this strategy that we hope to alleviate sufferings brought
about by high levels of poverty among our beloved citizens.

Chairperson, I would also like to inform this House that we are adopting an   r         ""
!
!&&  
intersectoral and interdepartmental approach to service delivery so as to attain
the highest levels of cost effectiveness.  In this regard we hope to establish
intensive dialogue with other departments; determining what they are doing,

  o F 
 which we could complement, and vice versa.  It will be a sorry day, Mr
Chairman, when members of our society get the impression that the
Government, through some departments, must provide indefinitely, certain
services without attempting to extricate them from those traps of dependency. 
We believe that Departments of Education, Works, Traditional Affairs, Health,
Economic Affairs and Tourism, and Agriculture can synergise significantly to
promote self(c)reliance.

It is our intention to implement this strategy through the following six
programs:  Social security, Social assistance, Social welfare services, Social
development, Population development and General Administration.


  o F >

 
6. X""
 PROGRAMMES
"


  o F 
 
6.1 X""
 PROGRAMME 1  :  GENERAL ADMINISTRATION
"

The head office of my Department has as its main responsibilities, policy
determination, strategy formulation and overall co(c)ordination and functioning
of the regions.  Mr main office is at Ulundi.  There are regional offices in
Pietermaritzburg, Durban and Ulundi.


  o F 0
 
6.1.1 X""
 PERSONNEL
"

The Department had by the close of 1998 a total number of approved posts of
2 563.


  o F 
 (c) X""
 Mr F S Hlongwa was appointed as Deputy Director at the head office
with effect from 1 January 1998;"

  o F ^
 (c) X""
 Mrs N D Dlomo was appointed as Deputy Director in the Ulundi Region
with effect from 1 November 1998."

The Department has filled most of the key middle management positions which
had been vacant for some time.
   s         ""
!
!&&  ԌThe following officials opted for voluntary severance packages in May 1998
and October 1998 respectively:


  o F 
 (c) X""
 Mr I Nethraj and Mr D du Plessis"

  o F 
 (c) X""
 Miss E Welman, Deputy Director from the Pietermaritzburg Regional
Office who resigned with effect from 30 November 1998."


  o F .
 
6.1.2 X""
 TRAINING
"

The Department is committed to service excellence.  Of course, Chairperson,
this requires a programme of staff development through appropriate training. 
Staff development is pursued within the Department.

After a needs assessment on an annual basis, nominated staff are sent for
training by the Administration's Training Component.  It is the intention of my
Department to build into training strong components of a work ethic, a high
morale at work, efficient service delivery, honesty and integrity.  In an effort
to equip our staff with capacity for delivering services within the new social
development paradigm, social workers from my Department practising in rural
areas participated in a re(c)orientation programme for social workers, a pilot
programme sponsored by the National Department of Welfare in partnership
with the Independent Development Trust.  The objectives of the programme
were as follows:


  o F 0
 (c) X""
 better trained social workers and personnel;"

  o F 
 (c) X""
 social welfare capacity building and improved curriculum changes at
tertiary institutions;"

  o F 
 (c) X""
 assist provincial welfare departments to compile guidelines on social
welfare re(c)orientation programmes;"

  o F 
 (c) X""
 encourage and achieve consensus among trainers on concepts and
meaning of developmental social welfare; and"

  o F ^
 (c) X""
 encourage stronger relationships between private and public sector
social workers."

Considering the fact that this was a pilot project targeting a few practitioners
servicing the marginalised communities, we are hoping to utilise the results for
purposes of extending the training to the rest of our social workers.  The   t        ""
!
!&&  
process of implementing our good plans relies heavily on personnel with
relevant and sufficient knowledge, skills and attitudes.


  o F 
 
6.1.3 X""
 ADULT BASIC EDUCATION AND TRAINING
"

The staff from my Department have been participating in the  Adult Basic
Education and Training Services (ABET) programme currently operating from the
Department of the Premier.  A coordinator, sub(c)co(c)ordinators and tutors have
been appointed.  This year we will be filling in some vacant positions for the
Durban and Pietermaritzburg Regions.  At the moment we have a total of 202
officials who are being trained as tutors for the programme.  This financial year,
we will continue to conduct classes at the old age homes and other
government institutions.


  o F \

 
6.1.4 X""
 TRANSFORMATION
"

The Department believes in the transformation of all its sub(c)sections. 
Transformation is instrumental to improved customer service as well as to
prudent management of resources in our Department.

Most of the transformation training has taken place through the Programme for
Good Governance.  The Department of Social Welfare and Population
Development has participated diligently in the transformation workshops run by
the Programme for Good Governance.  The participation has been active since
March 1998.  The Department has successfully arranged that transformation
workshops are undertaken in all three regions of the Department.  The
information process has now cascaded to all functional components.


  o F 
 
6.1.5
 X""
 
TRANSFORMATION CAPACITY
"

We are transforming our staff establishment in line with the paradigm shift.  A
proposal for a new establishment has been made, but it has not yet been
approved.

The Department set up a transformation structure.  Staff members were elected
as transformation co(c)ordinators and communicators in each of the three
regions.  The co(c)ordinators report to the Departmental Transformation Co   u        ""
!
!&&  "ordinator, Dr L P Mqadi.  Dr Mqadi in turn, provides progress reports to the
Departmental MANCO where good governance is a standing item on the
agenda.  The Secretary of the Department, Mr E S Mhlongo, attends most
workshops, in spite of his busy schedule.

One of the priorities of the Department is that staff members should clearly
understand the 2020 Vision of the Province.  Therefore, staff members are
motivated to participate in the determination of transformation objectives and
action plans.

Transformation has dealt with Work Ethics Improving Service Delivery and
Human Resources Development.  Some of the objectives in this Transformation
Exercise were:


  o F \

 (c) X""
 acceptance of the code of conduct;"

  o F >

 (c) X""
 improvement of offices; especially pension halls and working areas;"

  o F  

 (c) X""
 equal distribution of resources so as to improve service delivery;"

  o F 
 (c) X""
 relevant training of staff members on Financial Management before 31
March 1999."


  o F 
 
6.1.6 X""
 ACCOMMODATION/AGENCY FUNCTIONS
"

Accommodation is still a big challenge to the Department of Social Welfare and
Population Development.  In quite a number of areas, citizens still have to travel
long distances to get to the service offices.  Within the financial constraints the
policy of the Department is to have at least one multi(c)purpose office in each
district.  Also, depending on the size of the district, sub(c)offices are also to be
established.

In terms of this policy, the Durban District Office and the Game City District
Office have amalgamated and now form one District Office operating from the
Esplanade Government building.  The Department intends opening offices in
Port Shepstone.  There are also prospects of acquiring premises in Pinetown
which will serve the areas of New Germany, KwaNdengezi and other areas
surrounding Pinetown.

The former Premier of KwaZulu(c)Natal, Dr Ben Ngubane, opened the Nquthu   v         ""
!
!&&  
District Office on November 26, 1998.

In the Pietermaritzburg region, during June 1998, the service points at Nine
Pops Centre, Raisethorpe Main Centre City Building, and Symons Centre, were
moved to temporary premises at 240 Burger Street.  The office at 390
Pietermaritz Street was retained as a service point.

A new office was opened at Ixopo.  Although Ixopo has had the benefits of
social work services since 1997, social security services were rendered on a
periodical basis from Richmond.

In November 1998, two offices in Ladysmith were amalgamated.  Previously,
social work services were rendered from the Offices of Lady Keate Building,
while social security services were rendered from Alexandra Street.  Mr
Chairman, my Department has decided to provide the necessary infrastructure
during 1999 at Underberg, Bergville, Mooi River and Camperdown.


  o F 
 
6.1.7 X""
 COMMUNICATION
"

The main purpose of this function is to enlighten the community on the services
of the Department and to facilitate an interface between the Department and
the community.

Through communication, the Department is able to present new programmes
or services.  For instance, in 1998 communication services in the Department
helped launch a Child Support Grant in 24 districts.

Information regarding the child support grants needs to be disseminated in an
ongoing manner to the public.  The Department also used its Communication
Wing to make people observe the Welfare month during October 1998.

The visual representation of facts is a very effective way of communication. 
The capturing of important developments on photographs, especially the launch
of specific projects and of official opening of offices at various centres, is made
possible by the communication component.

The communication staff attend the Premier's Interdepartmental Management   w         ""
!
!&&  
Committee.  It also attends the inter(c)provincial meetings convened by the
National Department of Welfare.


  o F 
 
6.2""
 PROGRAMME 2  :  SOCIAL SECURITY


The largest share, that is 94%, of my Department's budget goes to social
security or, what is often referred to as pensions.  This is not surprising when
taking into consideration the high levels of poverty and the need to provide a
safety net to our deserving citizens.  However, as we gear ourselves towards
implementing developmental social welfare programmes we hope to eventually
decrease this percentage as more people are enabled to escape the poverty
trap.

On 1 April 1998, some significant changes to social security legislation were
introduced.  The most visible change was the introduction of a new grant type,
the Child Support Grant, with the concomitant phasing out of maintenance
grants.  Other changes instituted with the amendment to legislation include the
following:


  o F 
 (c) X""
 adjustment to the means test so as to take into account, at a marketrelated value, all property owned, regardless of whether it is occupied
by the beneficiary or not;"


  o F N
 (c) X""
 the date of accrual of grant payments changed from the date of
application to date of approval of the application, with an added
provision that no person may receive more than three months
backpay.  This statutory requirement impacts significantly on this
Department, in that any delay with the approval of grant applications
impacts directly on the applicant, who effectively loses money.  The
administrative procedure in this Department thus has to be streamlined
as a matter of urgency as a continued backlog cannot be tolerated."

May I note, Chairperson, that this Department has made significant progress in
reducing the grant backlog during 1998.  The backlog count for new
applications was reduced from 39 320 (as at April 1998) to 13 264 (at the end
of January 1999).
   x         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
6.2.1 X""
 TYPES OF GRANTS
"

The following are the main categories of social security as dictated by the
Social Assistance of 1992:


  o F j
 
6.2.1.1 X""
 THE CHILD SUPPORT GRANT
"

Historically, maintenance grants were paid to single parents with dependent
children under the age of 18 years, subject to certain conditions.  However, a
study by the Lund Committee revealed that maintenance grants were not
reaching those people who needed it most, that access to that particular grant
was fairly limited, and that, if all people who met the qualifying criteria for the
grant were to receive it, the State would not be able to sustain this grant type. 
It was then agreed that the maintenance grant would be phased out, and that
a new grant, the child support grant, would be introduced.  This grant is
targeted at children under the age of 7 years, who live in impoverished
circumstances, and is paid to the care giver, not only biological parents.

This heralded a significant change in direction of social security, in that the
grant was tailored to the realities of South African communities, as the change
in composition of families, where young children are often cared for by persons
other than their natural parents, is taken into account, rather than perpetuating
what had always been accepted.  The grant is also very specifically targeted,
with those areas with high poverty profiles receiving the bulk of the funding.

In order to assist with this targeting, the means test has been developed to
favour applicants in rural areas, and those living in informal housing.  The
amount available for this grant type has also been budgeted for over a period
of five years, thus ensuring that this grant is affordable and sustainable.  This
grant is the forerunner of a future social security system, in that it is linked to
development.  The intention is to offer long term alternatives to dependence,
promoting real, income(c)generating development.

This Department instituted a concerted communication campaign to promote
this new grant during 1998, and by January 1999, had taken applications for
a total of 14 092 children.  Although this is still significantly less than the
projected targeted number of 62 500 children for the period 1 April 1998 to 31   y        ""
!
!&&  
January 1999, this Province has had the highest number of applications in the
country.  In order to increase the uptake of these applications, district specific
programmes are being drawn up, which will be implemented by the local staff
during the course of 1999.  Included in these plans are negotiations with the
Department of Home Affairs to assist with the prompt provision of birth
certificates for the children, as this is a requirement for application.

The child support grant has the potential to reach 600 000 children in this
Province over a five year period (c) a goal which, if reached, will make a tangible
difference to the lives of the poor children, and go a long way towards ensuring
that the Government's commitment, to meeting the needs for the poorest of
the poor, promoting development in the rural areas is achieved.


  o F z

 
6.2.1.2 X""
 CARE DEPENDENCY GRANTS
"

This grant is given to care givers who give full(c)time home based care to
severely impaired children.


  o F 
 
6.2.1.3 X""
 FOSTER CARE GRANTS
"

This grant is given to those families providing alternate care to children who
would otherwise be institutionalised.


  o F N
 
6.2.1.4 X""
 DISABILITY GRANTS
"

This grant is given to those persons with physical or mental disabilities that
incapacitate them from providing for their basic needs.


  o F 
 
6.2.1.5 X""
 ATTENDANT CARE ALLOWANCE
"

This allowance is intended for supplementing the income of families with the
elderly or disabled persons receiving extensive nursing care in a home
environment.  It is thus an incentive for families to continue providing home
based care to their elderly as opposed to sending them to residential care.



   z         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 6.2.1.6 X""
 OLD AGE PENSIONS
"

These are grants for the elderly who have no adequate means for providing for
their basic needs.


  o F j
 


6.2.2 X""
THE RE(c)REGISTRATION PROGRAMME
"

Efforts in social security during 1998 concentrated on the implementation of
the re(c)registration programme.  This programme aims at reviewing all current
beneficiaries, in order to ensure that all are registered on a social pensions'
system (SOCPEN) on a 13 digit bar(c)coded identity number, thus eliminating all
duplications and fraudulent pensioners, as well as updating the often
incomplete and inaccurate information already on the system.  The contract for
re(c)registration was awarded to Group Africa Marketing, who have worked very
closely with officials from this Department in implementing the programme.

The Department commenced on 12 October 1998, with a pilot project in
Umlazi.  Initially eight teams were trained during the period 29 September 1998
to 9 October 1998, and all were used in Umlazi.  Additional field staff were
trained in all three regions as from 26 October 1998 for a period of one week,
so that as from 17 November 1998 a total of 66 teams were operational
throughout the Province.  These teams, comprising seven members per team,
and which travel from district to district, have been responsible for the
interviewing of every beneficiary, the completion of all the relevant forms as
well as the fingerprinting of every beneficiary.  This information is then placed
on files, which are forwarded to the data processing centre established in
Durban.

During January 1999, a further eight teams were trained, and all were based
in Durban central, at two static points, which have been operational as from 1
February 1999.  The static points were established in an effort to target the
pension community in the greater Durban area.

As at 5 March 1999, a total of 287 968 re(c)registrations had been completed
in the field.  All these files are now at the data processing centre in Durban,
where the information of the SOCPEN system will be updated.  The procedure
at this centre is that all fingerprint cards are removed from the files and sent to   {        ""
!
!&&  
the Department of Home Affairs in Pretoria for verification.  Once the identity
of the beneficiary is confirmed, the information on the re(c)registration file is
captured and the computerised system thus updated.

The data processing section has been functioning since November 1998.  A
total of 150 contract data processors, 14 registry staff, one cleaner and eight
departmental supervisors are based at this centre.  The processing of all reregistration files is expected to be completed by the end of 1999, while the
target date for completion of the field work for this project is set for the end of
June 1999.  At the end of the process, those beneficiaries who have not reregistered will have payment of their grant suspended.  All pensioners affected
by any decision taken as a result of re(c)registration have the right to appeal
against that decision, just as any other beneficiary.  An appeal can be noted
within 90 days from the date the pensioner is notified of the decision.


  o F >

 
6.2.3 X""
 PLANS FOR 1999
"

Plans for 1999 thus include the continued promotion of the child support grant
in an effort to reach the targeted numbers, as well as the promotion of
developmental programmes which will offer alternatives to those people losing
the support of the maintenance grant, and those in receipt of the child support
grant.  The re(c)registration project will continue to run during the coming year
and this Department strongly believes that this project will shortly begin to
show very real benefits in the form of savings, as those beneficiaries who do
not qualify for the benefits they have been receiving and fictitious pensions are
removed from the system.

In addition, 1999 will see the awarding of a new contract for the payment of
cash grants.  The current contract has expired and tenders have been invited
for a new payment system, which will ensure that all cash payments are made
by a single contractor, that no officials handle cash grant payments, and that
only legitimate beneficiaries can be paid.  In addition to the obvious benefits of
such a system, an added benefit to the Department is that all service points will
have staff available through the month to attend to the public.  This should
result in much improved administration at the service points (c) a factor which
will directly benefit the community served.  This Department is committed to
an effective, fraud(c)free social security system and it is believed that the   |        ""
!
!&&  
initiatives currently underway will pave the way for the achievement of this
goal.


  o F 
 
6.3 X""
 PROGRAMME 3  :  SOCIAL ASSISTANCE
"

The Social Assistance programme enables my Department to finance nongovernmental organisations and facilities to provide welfare services on an
agency basis.  This includes social work services at welfare organisations,
children's homes, creches, protective workshops, homes for the aged and
disabled, luncheon clubs, service centres for the aged, and treatment centres. 
Under this programme falls a variety of statutory and preventative programmes
that address the needs of the vulnerable groups such as those suffering from
HIV/AIDS, the disabled, abused women and children and neglected children.

The services provided by these non(c)governmental organisations are extremely
vital to the Province.  The Department only finances a percentage of their
expenditure while the balance has to be secured through fund(c)raising and
donations.  These organisations rely heavily on services of volunteers from
respective communities and the methodology is thus extremely cost effective
as compared to services provided by the public sector.

Currently financing is in the form of 13 different formulae with particular
emphasis on fields of service and type of service.  This creates many
incongruencies and disproportionate funding.  My Department, together with
the other provinces has worked with the National Department to produce a
draft policy document on financing of social development services.

Mr Chairman, can I respond to nature's call please.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  We are going to wait for the Minister.  We are not going
to adjourn the House.


  o F @
 
MR A RAJBANSI:
  Mr Chairman, can I rise on a point of order during this
intermission.


  o F -
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Yes, Mr Rajbansi.
   }         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
MR A RAJBANSI:
  I request that Mr Arthur Konigkramer come back to the
chamber, because the Minister is dealing with family preservation projects, and
I want to allege he is interfering with my family, and I can prove it. 
[LAUGHTER]


  o F j
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  We are not going to entertain that, Mr Rajbansi,
unfortunately.


  o F 

 
MR A RAJBANSI:
  I want my family preserved.  He is interfering with my
family.


  o F 	
 
PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare):
  This draft policy has been
workshopped throughout the Province and the comments of stakeholders have
been forwarded to help finalise the policy.  The proposed policy will assist in
transforming social service delivery and enable my Department to fund
developing organisations which could not previously access funds.  On the
whole, the private welfare organisations have been very effective in stimulating
poverty alleviation initiatives in low income communities.

The amendments to the Child Care Act, Act 74 of 1983, enables the
registration of shelters for street children.  My Department has begun financing
these street children's shelters and provision has been made for the first time
in our budget.  We believe, Chairperson, sir, that by investing in children and
the youth, we are building a better and viable country.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare):
  


  o F 
 
6.4 X""
 PROGRAMME 4  :  SOCIAL WELFARE SERVICES
"

This programme covers the direct Social Work services rendered at a District
and Regional Level and the management and maintenance of 14 State

  o F "
 institutions that provide care to the various categories of the vulnerable, viz
children, families, aged, disabled, drug and alcohol dependent and offenders.

   ~         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
6.4.1 X""
 CHILD AND FAMILY CARE
"

The new Child Care Act dictates that services to children and their families be
provided within a specific framework:


  o F j
 
6.4.1.1 X""
THE INTER(c)MINISTERIAL COMMITTEE ON CHILDREN AND YOUTH AT

  o F L
 RISK
"

The Department of Social Welfare has been working closely with the Interministerial Committee on Children and Youth at Risk (IMC).  The main objective
of the IMC is the transformation of the Child and Youth care system through
ensuring that they remain integrated in their communities, and that those in
alternate care (institutional and other forms) are able to receive reconstruction
and rehabilitation services.  One of the projects undertaken by my Department
along with the IMC, is the Family Preservation Project.


  o F  

 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Hear! Hear!  Husband and wife units.  [LAUGHTER]


  o F 
 
PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare):
  The Family Preservation
Project, an ongoing pilot project, undertaken at Inanda in 1995, aims at
promoting an approach which is child(c)centred, family focused and community
based.

The project was evaluated in 1997 and was found to be very effective in:


  o F 
 (c) X""
 creating awareness among both the parents and youth of the
challenges faced by each group;"


  o F 
 (c) X""
 empowering participating families by providing them with coping skills,
enabling them to discover their strengths and how those strengths
could be utilised for coping with the challenges;"


  o F @
 (c) X""
 reducing the number of children sent to institutions (c) out of 27 cases
only one child was sent to an institution;"


  o F -
 (c) X""
 reducing the number of street children from Inanda area.  The project
improved people's parenting skills while simultaneously empowering           ""
!
!&&  
the youth with alternative ways of problem solving;"


  o F 
 (c) X""
 reviving positive cultural practices, for example, the role played by the
extended family in child care and communal values that are derived
from the notion of Ubuntu."


  o F L
 
6.4.1.2 X""
 PROJECT GO
"

Project Go commenced in January 1998 with a view to transforming the care
system to an effective and efficient system of care.  Social workers are trained
in developmental assessment so as to ensure that children entering into
residential care benefit from it as opposed to getting trapped within the
institutional system of care.  Monthly statistics are being submitted to the
National Office indicating the number of children awaiting trial in various
institutions such as police cells, prisons, and places of safety.  Thus far, the
results have been very positive; with a significant decrease in the number of
children being admitted to children's homes and approximately two applications
to move children deeper into the system are received per month.


  o F 
 
6.4.1.3 X""
 VUMA REFORM SCHOOL
"

The process of restructuring in line with the new statutory requirements for
Child and Youth Care have necessitated that we close Vuma Reform School. 
This was done in consultation with the National Department as the dynamics
in the institution were not in keeping with the new paradigm which advocates
for smaller secure child care and youth centres.

There is also a need for staff re(c)orientation so as to enable them to implement
their duties in accordance with the new regulations.  However, budgetary
constraints are making it difficult for us to realise this important goal.


  o F ^
 
6.4.2 X""
 HIV/AIDS
"

Our Province is faced with the enormous challenge of the AIDS epidemic. 
Regular media reports indicate that our Province is leading when it comes to the
numbers of people who are HIV positive.  Such a situation increases the
demand for welfare services as the need for counselling services, residential   Ȁ        ""
!
!&&  
care and social security increases with both the short term and long term
impact of the epidemic.

Already we have a large number of AIDS orphans and abandoned children who
need alternative systems of care.  My Department is making every possible
effort to tackle these challenges.  We are in the process of developing a
Provincial Plan on AIDS.  Workshops are being held so as to create awareness
and also to inform both the policy(c)making and programming processes.  For
example, AIDS has increased the number of orphans who have to depend on
welfare services.  The epidemic has also eroded community support systems
through, for example, the death of foster parents and members of extended
families who could be a significant resource in caring for orphans.  We foresee
a situation where more children are going to be abandoned.

The following are some of the interventions by staff from my Department:


  o F  

 (c) X""
 Providing disability grants to poverty stricken victims of the epidemic;"


  o F 
 (c) X""
Conducting information(c)sharing workshops.  Last year, we held a
Provincial Welfare AIDS Summit where we explored issues relating to
HIV/AIDS and their implications for social work practices;"


  o F l
 (c) X""
Conducting workshops to inform the policy(c)making process;"


  o F 0
 (c) X""
 Providing education to the public to provide awareness and effect
behaviour modification with a view to preventing the spread of the
epidemic;"


  o F 
 (c) X""
 Providing counselling and support to clients and their families;"


  o F |
 (c) X""
 Working closely with other service providers in an effort to provide
services to the victims and also to prevent the spread of the epidemic. 
We also provide training to AIDS volunteers."


  o F -
 
6.4.3 X""
 THE VICTIM EMPOWERMENT PROGRAMME
"

My Department is playing a leading role in this programme which falls under the   ȁ         ""
!
!&&  
broader umbrella of the National Crime Prevention Strategy.  The overall goal
of the National Crime Prevention Strategy is the co(c)ordination of the activities
of departments involved in crime prevention and control as well as to build
partnerships with the civil society.  The goal of the Victim Empowerment
Programme is to support and empower the victims of all forms of crime and
violence.

Members of the programme are stakeholders involved in crime and violence

  o F 

 prevention activities, viz government departments, non(c)governmental
organisations and commissions.

The programme received a grant of R150 000 from the National Department. 
(A post for the Manager/Assistant Co(c)ordinator are in the process of being filled
so as to get the project going).  An amount of R250 000 was made available
by the National Department for supporting a variety of programmes for
empowering victims of crime and violence.  A number of outstanding
programmes submitted by a host of organisations were selected for funding.

Some of the programmes undertaken within the Victim Empowerment
Programme include providing the following services to the victims of violence
of the Richmond area:


  o F l
 (c) X""
 trauma counselling;"

  o F N
 (c) X""
 mediation;"

  o F 0
 (c) X""
 essential supplies such as food and clothing."


  o F 
 
6.4.4 X""
 VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN
"

Violence against women is one of the ills against which we have to heal our
society.  My Department seeks to ensure that the functioning of every citizen
is at an optimum level.  However, violence against women impacts on the
abilities of our beloved women to fulfil their responsibilities in our society.  In
this regard my Department's approach is not limited to dressing the wounds but
to preventing the recurrence of such unfortunate incidents through community
education and providing support and advice.  The message we convey is that
every human being, irrespective of gender, has an inherent dignity which no
person, be it a male chauvinist, has the right to violate.   Ȃ        ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
6.4.5 X""
 DRUG AND ALCOHOL DEPENDENT CARE
"

Alcoholism and drug abuse continue to threaten growth and development in our
Province.  In this regard, we provide residential treatment (that is Durban and
Madadeni) while also providing preventative, therapeutic and after care
services.


  o F .
 
6.5 X""
 PROGRAMME 5  :  SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT
"


  o F 

 
6.5.1 X""
 DEVELOPMENTAL SOCIAL WELFARE
"

The main aim of the social development programme is to promote the
implementation of policies and programmes aimed at facilitating the overall
development of communities.

The objectives of the programme include:


  o F 
 (c) X""
 providing financial assistance and capacity building for nongovernmental organisations rendering community development
activities;"


  o F 
 (c) X""
 promoting the development of the National Database of nongovernmental organisations;"


  o F 0
 (c) X""
 promoting the planning, development and human resources in respect
of developmental social welfare;"


  o F 
 (c) X""
 rendering administrative support services."

While we have all the above mentioned four objectives, financial constraints
have limited the allocation of funding only to administrative support services. 
This means that we cannot implement the other three crucial objectives of our
programme.

As stated, the focus of my Department is on unleashing the human potential
for self(c)help and self(c)actualisation.  Fundamental to our approach is the belief
that most humans are capable of effecting positive changes in their   ȃ        ""
!
!&&  
circumstances given appropriate guidance.  This notion is encapsulated in the
emphasis on social development by the White Paper on social welfare. 
Developmental social welfare rests on the notion of building people's capacity
for problem solving and self(c)actualisation with a view to fostering self(c)reliance. 
Such a process involves empowering people by linking them up with resources
and providing them with the necessary skills.

A significant consequence of the success of our development efforts will be the
decrease in the number of those applying for social security programmes.

As more and more individuals learn to utilise available resources so as to attain
self(c)reliance, we are hoping to make major savings in the allocations for social
security.  However, for our strategies to succeed, we rely on a host of other
sectors such as labour, finance and education.  For example, it is near
impossible for us to enable people to break the cycle of poverty without good
policies that will enable the working poor to earn decent wages and hence save
for their retirement.


  o F 
 
6.5.2 X""
 POVERTY ALLEVIATION
"

Our poverty alleviation programmes target the existing pockets of poverty
which are mostly in rural areas.  Last year (1998) this Province secured R4,4
million out of the R50 million allocated for the poverty alleviation by the
National Welfare Department.

Poverty alleviation funds are utilised for purposes of undertaking development
programmes that foster local initiative and self(c)reliance.  Such programmes
should bring about sustainable development in the target communities.  Thus
far, the projects undertaken took the form of skills development and training,
capacity building and economic empowerment.  Some of the activities
undertaken were community gardens, block(c)making, garment making, baking,
hairdressing and catering.  This year we secured an amount of R35 million for
poverty alleviation projects in terms of business plans approved as at 19 March
1999.

The following criteria was used for allocating poverty alleviation funds:
   "         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (c) X""
 strengthening the existing programmes for poverty alleviation;"

  o F  
 (c) X""
 targeting poverty pockets;"

  o F 
 (c) X""
 targeting vulnerable groups such as women with young children,
children infected with HIV, the aged, the disabled;"

  o F 
 (c) X""
 replicating flagship programmes;"

  o F j
 (c) X""
 targeting families with children receiving child support grants and
those diverted from maintenance and child support grants;"

  o F .
 (c) X""
 intersectoral interdepartmental programmes that will promote the
notion of collaboration between various service providers;"

  o F 

 (c) X""
 capacity building programmes."

These funds will continue to be monitored efficiently to ensure that they can
yield high returns with a view to breaking the cycle of poverty and dependency
on the State.  My staff also attended a national workshop in October 1998
where issues relating to social and community development in Southern Africa
were debated.  Valuable lessons were learnt and I am expecting improvements
to be effected by the staff in this Province.

I will now briefly touch upon two of our poverty alleviation programmes
undertaken in the past year; namely, the Regional Development Centre and the
Provision of Water and Sanitation Projects.


  o F l
 


6.5.2.1 X""
THE REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT CENTRE (c) ILLOVO
"

In keeping with an intersectoral approach to service provision, the Department
of Social Welfare consulted and collaborated with other stakeholders in
development.  Such consultations culminated in the building of a Development
Centre in Illovo which is located in the South Coast area of KwaZulu(c)Natal. 
The Development Centre will provide a venue for a host of development
activities that will be undertaken by the community, for example, skills training. 
It is my Department's vision to replicate this model in an effort to promote
holistic and sustainable development in other areas of this Province, for
example, Vuma in Eshowe.


  o F -
 
6.5.2.2 X""
 WATER AND SANITATION
"

In most of our rural areas, access to water and sanitation is a luxury enjoyed   ...         ""
!
!&&  
by few.  The absence of potable water and sanitation services makes the
people vulnerable to poor health.  The costs to the State are increased pressure
on Social Welfare Services and Community Health Care.  The provision of
dependable water supplies has a strong positive effect on food security and
income generation for rural women.

The Department of Welfare has linked with local authorities and out of funds
for poverty eradication have ensured that water is available to rural
communities.  This has resulted in irrigation of small farms, commercial
vegetable gardens and community gardens (c) thus providing an opportunity to
increase nutrition.  Small scale enterprises are promoted, as well as household
diets.  In many cases the income generated by produce constitutes the only
income of a household, and as such is essential to the survival of that
household.


  o F >

 
6.5.3 X""
 FLAGSHIP PROGRAMMES
"

The initiation of Flagship programmes was facilitated by the National
Department of Social Welfare.  These programmes are being implemented
through all nine provinces.  They target low(c)income women with children under
five years of age.  In this Province two flagship pilot programmes are being
undertaken, namely the Bhambanana Programme at Ingwavuma and the Azalea
Programme in the Midlands region.


  o F 0
 
6.5.3.1 X""
 THE BHAMBANANA PROGRAMME
"

The programme targets a total of 80 women and 160 children.  The following
are the income generating activities undertaken by the participants:


  o F 
 (c) X""
 poultry farming"

  o F |
 (c) X""
 spaza post office"

  o F ^
 (c) X""
 gardening"

  o F @
 (c) X""
 sewing"

  o F "
 (c) X""
 child minding"

  o F -
 (c) X""
 arts and crafts"

  o F -
 (c) X""
 tourist(c)friendly service"
   Ȇ         ""
!
!&&  ԌWhat surprises me is that these projects are only done by women.  When you

  o F  
 ask where our men are, the answer is basotshwaleni  [they are in beer halls].


  o F 
 
6.5.3.2 X""
 THE AZALEA PROGRAMME
"

This programme is targeting about 150 women and 153 children.  The project
staff is in the process of securing land for the project (c) a process which has
taken longer than expected.  However, skills training has already begun with
a number of women completing courses on poultry farming and business skills. 
The business skills course covered sections such as:


  o F 	
 (c) X""
 practical marketing skills"

  o F 

 (c) X""
 personal selling skills"

  o F z

 (c) X""
 customer care"

  o F \

 (c) X""
 basic bookkeeping and"

  o F >

 (c) X""
 effective financial management"

The project should culminate in the economic empowerment of low income
participants.  It will provide women with both theoretical information and
hands(c)on experience of income generation.


  o F 
 
6.6 X""
 PROGRAMME 6  :  POPULATION DEVELOPMENT
"


  o F N
 
6.6.1 X""
 POPULATION POLICY
"

One of the major accomplishments made during the year (1998) was the
completion of the process of formulating the White Paper on Population Policy
(Government Gazette Volume 399 No 19230 of 7 September 1998).  Like the
White Paper on Welfare, this policy reflects a paradigm shift from the traditional
focus on demographic targets to an emphasis on a programme of action that
addresses the socio(c)economic needs of individuals, especially women and girls. 
The rationale is that population and development are inseparable.

The White Paper thus espouses an integrated approach to population and
sustainable human development.  The population Unit thus aims at facilitating
and supporting the implementation of a National Population Policy by
Government Departments.  The Unit provides the necessary information and   ȇ        ""
!
!&&  
technical support to all structures of government.  Its implementation requires
the co(c)operation of the various structures.  The staff will work closely with all
relevant government departments and other important players in implementing
the policy.


  o F j
 
6.6.2 X""
THE STRUCTURE AND FUNCTIONS OF THE KWAZULU(c)NATAL

  o F L
 POPULATION UNIT
"

The Population Unit in my Department has been restructured into a Directorate
with three sub(c)directorates, namely:


  o F 	
 (c) X""
 Population policy research and planning;"

  o F 

 (c) X""
 Population policy implementation support;"

  o F z

 (c) X""
 Population policy Monitoring, Interpretation and Evaluation."

The following are the planned activities for 1999/2000:


  o F 
 (c) X""
recruitment of KwaZulu(c)Natal staff in accordance with the new
structure;"


  o F 
 (c) X""
 training of KZN Population Unit Staff to improve technical skills;"


  o F l
 (c) X""
negotiations are underway with universities (Durban(c)Westville, Natal
and Zululand) to develop a programme on population studies.  Such a
programme will help build capacity of our staff and will be in line with
the paradigm shift from population control to socio(c)economic
development.  KwaZulu(c)Natal is going to be one of the first provinces
to have universities offering such a programme.  We are also
considering the involvement of John Hopkins University (USA) in
offering population studies through distance learning;"


  o F ^
 (c) X""
 providing a strong administrative support to ensure the smooth running
of the office;"


  o F -
 (c) X""
 establishing a resource centre so as to provide updated population
information and statistics;"
   Ȉ         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (c) X""
 liaising with different government departments with a view to enabling
them to address population issues;"


  o F 
 (c) X""
 monitoring, evaluating and reporting on progress;"


  o F j
 (c) X""
 commissioning research on population issues;"


  o F .
 (c) X""
 designing and producing marketing material;"


  o F 

 (c) X""
 establishing an interdepartmental Liaison Committee;"


  o F 	
 (c) X""
 organising events to commemorate World Population Day."


  o F z

 
6.7 X""
 PROGRAMME 7  :  AUXILIARY AND ASSOCIATED SERVICES
"

The Department has faced a huge backlog in the provisioning of office and
residential accommodation.  In 1998, the Department managed to build the
following:


  o F 
 (c) X""
 Nongoma Welfare Offices which will be completed sometime in May,
maybe May 15, 1999."


  o F l
 (c) X""
 Ongoye Welfare Offices and Residential Accommodation which are
due for a handover to us on April 30, 1999."


  o F 
 (c) X""
 Ingwavuma Welfare Offices and Residential Accommodation which
will be completed by May 1999."


  o F 
 (c) X""
 Ngwelezane Place of Safety was renovated in 1998."


  o F |
 (c) X""
 Emondlo Welfare Society Premises were taken over from the
Department of Health that had used them as a clinic.  The building
was released by the Department of Health and used by the
Department from October 27, 1998."

While I talk about Nongoma office, it reminds me, some time last year one hon
member of this House questioned the use of so much money to build the office   ȉ        ""
!
!&&  
at Nongoma.  I will never forget that.  That was Mr Edwards.  He said: "Why
do you spend so much money building an office in Nongoma?  What is
Nongoma?"  It is the district of the King.  I will tell you that until you leave this
House.


  o F j
 (c) X""
 Izingolweni Welfare Office and Staff Quarters whose construction will
take effect from April 1999."


  o F 

 (c) X""
Pinetown Welfare Office (c) after the New Germany Welfare office was
declared a health hazard the Department purchased premises in
Pinetown for R1 million to be used as Welfare offices."


  o F 

 (c) X""
 Port Shepstone Welfare Offices created some confusion and
hardships.  After our Department lodged its request to the Department
ROPAC, Department of Works offered us an incomplete new building. 
However, we were later told that the Durban ROPAC had reallocated
the building to the Department of Education."


  o F 
 (c) X""
Umzumbe Welfare Office (c) we upgraded a shed on the premises of
Umzumbe Works Offices."


  o F 
 (c) X""
Maphumulo Welfare Office (c) offices at Maphumulo are hosted by the
Magistrate.  A new Welfare Office will be erected."

The Department plans to build new offices in Mahlabathini and Izingolweni
areas in the 1999/2000 financial year.


  o F 
 
8. X""
 BUDGET
"

Chairperson, I would now like to present my Department's budget.


  o F ^
 
8.1 X""
 BUDGET 1999/2000 OVERVIEW
"

In this financial year an amount of R3 797 310 000 has been allocated in order
to cover running costs, including a statutory amount of R405 000.

   Ȋ         ""
!
!&&  ԌThe estimates are presented according to the seven main programmes as
follows:




^  
 ! ;ddx1/4>   %`3/4             
 A ;d d x        F2	$>              ^ 
- '		 
 
T-                 0       
  o F N
 "
 
PROGRAM
ă   0       
  o F N
 ! 
AMOUNT
ă   0       
  o F N
 f- 
%
ă-  
 
j 	 	-          "   	 H 1          Administration      #    -    21 930 000      #   *   0,58- j 	 	j 	 	0-          "   	 H 2   
       Social Security  
    #    > 3 571 990 000  
    #   *  94,08- j 	 	j 	 	-          "   	 H 3   n       Social Assistance  n    #    j   111 405 000  n    #   *   2,93- j 	 	j 	 	
-          "   	 H 4   	       Social Welfare Services  	    #    -    87 176 000  	    #   *   2,30- j 	 	j 	 	n-          "   	 H 5   B
       Social Development  B
    #         2 365 000  B
    #   *   0,06- j 	 	j 	 		-          "   	 H 6   
       Population Development  
    #         1 539 000  
    #   *   0,04- j 	 	j 	 	B
-          "   	 H 7   
       Auxiliary & Ass Services  
    #           500 000  
    #   *   0,01- j 	 			
-          "   	 v           
  o F 

 .	"
 
TOTAL
ă      #  
  o F 

   > 
3 796 905 000
           		 
   
In comparison with the amount voted for the 1998/1999 financial year, this
represents a decrease of R188 890 000 or 5%. The allocation for last year had
been increased by 18,84%.

Further details of the Budget in terms of various Programmes and items of
Expenditure are as follows:


  o F 
 
8.1.1 X""
 PROGRAMME 1  :  ADMINISTRATION (R21 930 000)
"

Provision is made under this programme for the Ministry and Management,
which includes expenditure on financial, provisioning and personnel
management as well as for the provision of other support functions relating to
labour relations, organisation and work study, communication, language and
legal services.

This allocation has increased by R6 091 000.  This increase is due to the carry
through costs of salary improvements in respect of personnel expenditure that
came into effect on 1 July 1998.  This is also due to the Administrative   "       ""
!
!&&  
Expenditure for the Pietermaritzburg Region which had been previously under
the Social Security programme and the under(c)funding of personnel costs during
the financial year 1998/1999.

As a result, of a 59% cut in the administrative expenditure standard item, the
Ministerial activities that include travelling expenses etcetera will be severely
curtailed.  Also, the running costs of the official vehicles have not been catered
for adequately.

Furthermore, the filling of key posts in an effort to strengthen the head office
component will be entirely put in abeyance until funds become available.  When
I do not know.

The 48% reduction of the allocation for equipment means that the purchasing
of equipment during the financial year under review will be limited, especially
in view of the fact that furniture has to be purchased for four new offices that
were constructed during the 1998/1999 financial year.


  o F 
 
8.1.2 X""
 PROGRAMME 2  :  SOCIAL SECURITY (R3 571 990 000)
"

This programme provides for the payment of grants to various categories of
beneficiaries including parents, children, aged and disabled persons as well as
the provision for social relief and funds for the administration costs of the social
security programme.  The allocation has decreased by R205 714 000 which is
reflected as follows:


  o F 
 
8.1.2.1 X""
 PERSONNEL EXPENDITURE (INCREASE R6 598 000)
"

The increase is due to the carry through costs of the salary improvements
which came into effect on 1 July 1998 and the under(c)funding in the personnel
expenditure during the 1998/1999 financial year.  No vacant posts will be filled
despite an acute shortage of staff under the social security programme.


  o F "
 
8.1.2.2 X""
 TRANSFER PAYMENTS (DECREASE OF R199 194 000)
"

Social Security has been allocated an amount of R3,445 billion, which is based
on the current statistics of those who should receive social security.  My   Ȍ        ""
!
!&&  
Department is committed to effecting the proposed 4% increase in the
monetary value of grants from 1 July 1999.  The National Government has
announced this increase.  I want them to bring it here so that I pass it on to the
people.  People have heard about it, so they must send it over.  The amount
required for this increase is R169 million.  Although the budgeted amount
provides for the 2,2% growth, funds in respect of the 4% increase are still
being negotiated with the Provincial Treasury.  This was their arrangement with
the National Government, so we are waiting for that money to come so as to
pass on to the beneficiaries.  The beneficiaries will therefore receive an average
increase of R20 per month from 1 July 1999.


  o F 	
 
8.1.2.3 X""
 ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENDITURE (DECREASE OF R2 000 000)
"

Administrative expenditure has been allocated with an amount of R8,023
million.  This allocation shows a decrease of 20% if compared to the previous
year's allocation.  The implications of the reduction are that the travelling costs
have not been adequately catered for under Programme 2.


  o F 
 
8.1.2.4 X""
 EQUIPMENT (DECREASE OF R1 012 000)
"

The equipment has been allocated with an amount of R1,202 million.  This
allocation has been reduced by 54% if compared to the previous year's
allocation, and the implications of this are that purchasing and maintenance of
labour saving devices will be limited.


  o F 
 
8.1.2.5 X""
 PROFESSIONAL AND SPECIAL SERVICES (INCREASE R5 452 000)
"

R75,380 million has been allocated for this item.  This allocation shows an
increase of 7% on the original allocation for the previous financial year. 
Despite this little increase, this item has been under(c)funded by R27 million if
compared to the actual expenditure for the financial year 1998/1999.

The advertisement for one contractor, who will register all the beneficiaries and
also effect monthly payments to some beneficiaries, has been made.  If the
Provincial Tender Board approves the appointment of this contractor, the
expenditure under this item is very likely to double.  The increase in the uptake
of the Child Support Grant will also result in the increase in the Agency Fees.   ȍ        ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
8.1.3 X""
 PROGRAMME 3  :  SOCIAL ASSISTANCE (R111 405 000)
"

Under this programme R111,405 million has been allocated for the financing
of private Welfare Organisations.  Provision is also made for the administration
costs of the programme.  The allocation reflects an increase of R5 million to
cater for the subsidisation of new private welfare organisations as well as
salaries of social workers in these organisations.

In view of the shortage of funds, the Department will not be in a position to
adequately assist the organisations which operate in the previously
disadvantaged communities.


  o F 

 
8.1.4 X""
 PROGRAMME 4  :  SOCIAL WELFARE SERVICES (R87 176 000)
"

This programme provides for the management and maintenance of 14 State
institutions that provide care to children, families, the aged, disabled, drug and
alcohol dependents and offenders.  In addition, provision is made for the
administration cost of social work services.

An amount of R87,176 million has been budgeted for this service.  This amount
represents an increase of 6% from the current year's budget.  It is worth
mentioning, however, that the allocation does not provide for the vacant posts,
which would ensure that the service is made available to the disadvantaged
areas.


  o F 
 
8.1.5 X""
 PROGRAMME 5  :  SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT (R2 365 000)
"

This is a new programme of the Social Welfare vote introduced for the
promotion of Social Development through:


  o F |
 (c) X""
 promoting and monitoring the implementation of community
development policy and programmes;"

  o F @
 (c) X""
 financial assistance and capacity building for non(c)governmental
organisations promoting development;"

  o F -
 (c) X""
 promoting management, planning and development of human
resources in respect of developmental social welfare; and"

  o F 
 (c) X""
 rendering administrative support services."   Ȏ         ""
!
!&&Ԍ(tm)The amount allocated is R2,365 million.  It reflects an increase of R1 million. 
The allocation will not permit the required intensification of the programme.


  o F 
 
8.1.6 X""
 PROGRAMME 6  :  POPULATION DEVELOPMENT (R1 539 000)
"

An amount of R1,539 million has been budgeted for this service.  This amount
represents an increase of 31% from the previous year's budget.  Again, this
increase will only cater for the filling of a new post and to provide the
necessary training to keep the programme going.


  o F 
 
8.1.7 X""
 PROGRAMME 7  :  AUXILIARY AND ASSOCIATED SERVICES "

  o F 	
 (R500 000)


A sum of R500 000 has been set aside for the purchase of vehicles.  However,
the allocation will not be adequate to provide the transport requirements of the
Department.  This shocks one, because the cars belonging to the Department
have been reported stolen from almost all the districts.  I was speaking to a
person at Nongoma this morning, and he informed me that a few weeks ago a
car was stolen right out of the yard.  This is now a menace.


  o F 
 

Most of the services rendered by the Department rely on the availability of
suitable vehicles.  Owing to insufficient funds, it has neither been possible to
acquire all the vehicles necessary, nor to replace vehicles in need of
replacement.  The large number of hijacking incidents has exacerbated the
problem.  It is hoped that the new motor vehicle scheme will result in savings.


  o F 
 
8.2 X""
 MANAGEMENT PLAN
"

In view of the shortfalls reflected in certain aspects of the budget for
1999/2000, I will briefly indicate how the Department plans to manage the
budget.


  o F @
 
8.2.1 X""
 SOCIAL SECURITY"


  o F -
 8.2.1.1 X""
 PROFESSIONAL AND SPECIAL SERVICES (R80 100 000)
"

The available allocation is lower than the original voted amount for 1998/1999   ȏ         ""
!
!&&  
by 11% and it is lower than the actual expenditure (R128 983 000) for the
same year by 38%.  If the tender for the grants pay out is approved by the
Tender Board, the total cost of this service per annum is likely to be around
R176 983 000 if we assume that the contractor will assume the complete task
in December 1999 as planned.

The expenditure covers mainly the agency fees to private companies for the
payment of social security grants on behalf of the Department.

It is expected that the shortfall will be covered out of savings that would be
generated by the elimination of fraudulent and illegitimate payments from the
social security system, as well as savings (if any), which will be rolled over
from 1998/1999 financial year as undertaken by the Ministry of Finance.


  o F \

 
8.2.1.2 X""
 TRANSFER PAYMENTS (SOCIAL SECURITY)
"

Funds included under this item provide for grants to all existing beneficiaries
and new beneficiaries (at a growth rate of 2,2%), but do not include a provision
for the envisaged increase of 4% in the value of grants.  That is R169 million.

Again, it is expected that the shortfall will be covered out of savings that would
be generated by the elimination of fraudulent and illegitimate payments from
the social security system, as well as savings, (if any), which will be rolled over
from 1998/1999 financial year as per an undertaking by the Ministry of
Finance.


  o F 
 
8.2.2 X""
RE(c)REGISTRATION
"

My Department administers grants in respect of more than 630 000
beneficiaries in KwaZulu(c)Natal.

As indicated in my previous policy speech, fraud investigations continue to
reveal that a number of recipients are, in fact, illegal.

A conservative estimate of the number of fraudulent beneficiaries is between
5% and 10% of the total beneficiaries.  In monetary terms the loss through
fraudulent beneficiaries would be around R192 million per annum.   Ȑ        ""
!
!&&Ԍ(tm)To ensure that all beneficiaries on this Department's database are legitimate,
this Department is in the process of re(c)registering all the beneficiaries and it is
envisaged that the exercise will be finalised by June 1999.


  o F 
 
8.2.2.1 X""
 PERSONNEL EXPENDITURE
"

The available funds for the year under review (R138 348 000) are lower than
the amount appearing in the Adjustment Estimates for 1998/1999 by 2%.  This
therefore indicates that no vacant posts are funded during the year under
review.

However, certain key posts like the strengthening of the Inspectorate Unit and
key Managerial posts, will be funded out of the possible savings of the reregistration exercise as well as the possible savings which will be rolled over
from the 1998/1999 financial year as per an undertaking by the Ministry of
Finance.  I am milling him down.


  o F 
 
8.2.2.2 X""
 ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENDITURE, STORES AND EQUIPMENT
"

To ensure that Social Security is adequately catered for, my Department had
to reduce the already meagre allocation for these items by 35%, 14% and 64%
respectively.

My Department will keep the acquisition of these items to an absolute minimum
and will be limited to bare necessities.


  o F 
 
8.2.2.3 X""
 SUBSIDIES
"

The available funds will be sufficient to fund the current welfare organisations. 
However, the allocation does not allow the extension of the subsidies to the
previously disadvantaged communities.  The budget does not, however, include
the provision for shelters for street children, and people are moaning about this.

Chairperson, members of this hon House.  I now move that the amount of R3
796 905 000 be approved for the Department of Social Welfare and Population
Development (a statutory amount of R405 000 excluded).  I thank you.
   '         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I now wish to call upon the hon
member, Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee, Mr Ngema to address the
House for 15 minutes.


  o F 
 
MR M V NGEMA:
  I thank you, Chairperson, the hon Premier, members of the
House.  I would like to congratulate the Minister on his excellent speech this
afternoon.  The Minister has outlined the Mission Statement, key policy
objectives and programmes of his Department in very clear terms.  I wish to
assure the Minister and his Department of our unqualified support as the
Portfolio Committee on Social Welfare and Population Development.  The
allocations for the Social Welfare budget have been outlined by the Minister
where administration got 0,40%, social security 94,8%, social assistance
2,7%, social welfare services 2,07%, social development 0,03%, population
development 0,03%, auxiliary and associated services 0,01%.  I shall return to
these allocations later in my address.

The Portfolio Committee had a total of eight meetings and four public hearings. 
Some of the important matters that we dealt with were the issue which was
raised in the Minister's report on HIV/AIDS, the re(c)registration of pensioners,
distribution of social workers, and we discussed reports from various regional
offices and undertook one visit to the Durban regional office, and one district
office at Umzumbe.  Insurance policies of the aged were also discussed.  We
passed NCOP legislation and we are still dealing with the KZN Provincial Office
of the Commissioner for Children Bill.

The departmental budget has been the main feature on our agenda offering the
Portfolio Committee the opportunity to monitor the process of spending the
current budget and the development of the oncoming budget for the ensuing
year.  I wish to thank members of the Portfolio Committee for their support. 
We also wish to extend our word of thanks to the Portfolio Committee
Secretariat.

During the budget hearings with the Finance Portfolio Committee, we as the
Portfolio Committee of Social Welfare responsible for the Department and its
work dwelt extensively on the need to properly equip the Department.

The year 1998, showed many challenges due to the gross under(c)funding in   '         ""
!
!&&  
KwaZulu(c)Natal, as a grave concern which results in the following picture for
which the Chairman of the Finance Portfolio Committee chided me for calling
it a disastrous future.  I want to indicate to members what prompted this
remark from me.

I wish to point out the fact that we have the picture and I will present it against
the background where we have the situation that this year's budget is down
by 5% compared to the last financial year.  This, at the time when poverty,
unemployment, crime and HIV/AIDS is on the increase.

Take the Durban region which services 156 473 old aged, 64 412 disabled, 1
118 war veterans, 22 080 maintenance grants, 2 907 foster care grants, 1
662 care grants, 4 825 child support, and assists 6 166 children under the age
of seven.

Chairperson, in this particular region, 43% of the total number of pensioners of
KwaZulu(c)Natal are being serviced.  Let us look at how we in this Legislature are
equipped to deal with this very sensitive segment of our community.  In terms
of resources and staff, we have 27 district offices, seven institutions with 1
204 posts of which 998 are filled, leaving 206 posts vacant.  The staffing level
is at 82% and vacancies are unfunded.  Without money there is not much the
Department can do.  The biggest dilemma facing the Department is that the
unfilled vacancies include the one of the regional director which the Department
has done its best to ensure that it is filled.  Interviews are scheduled for 13
April this year.  The chief deputy director's post is still vacant, the social
security deputy director's post is also vacant.  At this moment the Department
is awaiting a decision from the Provincial Service Commission.  The Social
services deputy director's post is also vacant due to the shortage of senior
qualified staff and the rest of the staff suffer from stress at the workplace. 
This can easily lead to demotivation and lack of job satisfaction.


  o F ^
 
TRANSPORT


The region has 86 vehicles.  The Minister has referred to these facts.  I am
merely emphasising them for the House to understand the severity of the
matter.  There is a moratorium on new purchases.  The current subsidy scheme
with a minimum distance of 21 000 kilometres per annum or 1 750 kilometres   "        ""
!
!&&  
per month is proving to be unsuitable for the unique requirements of the
Department.  We would urge that the Department of Transport lends a
sympathetic ear to the pleas of the Department so that the requirements of this
Department can be provided for.  Vehicles purchased between 1985 to 1989
are not insured.  This immediately puts the Department at risk, if these vehicles
were to be stolen.  The Minister has just referred to the stealing of vehicles. 
This problem is severe, especially in our society known for armed robberies and
hijacking.


  o F 

 
EQUIPMENT


The main difficulty we are experiencing in this area is with our current Tender
Board requirements.  We have a situation where a switchboard remains
defective because the Department must furnish the Tender Board with a list of
directors of Telkom.  Very often we find that typewriters are old, because a
moratorium has been placed on the purchase of new equipment.  Clearly, this
places added pressure on staff and impinges on valuable time.  It is a sad fact
that although we are living in the information age, our district offices are
lacking behind and this tends to cause severe strain.

By highlighting the inadequate funding, I am painting a picture to this House in
order to understand the odds against which the Minister and the Department
have to contend, to achieve the excellent results he has reported on.  It is
evident from the above that although the Department is making reasonable
progress towards improving its efficiency, there are a number of financial
problems which stand in the way of progress.

Social development and population development are the two programmes that
have the potential of arresting the problem of poverty and other elements
accompanying it in our society.  I am pleading today, as I have done in the past
years, for these programmes to be so resourced so that we can achieve our
goals.  Social security, social assistance and social welfare services can only
manage the social problems of our community, but these problems need to be
arrested before we can hope to manage them.  The point I wish to make is that
we must concentrate our energies on the measures aimed at arresting and
controlling hunger, malnutrition, poverty and other poverty related diseases.
   "         ""
!
!&&  ԌI believe that the Xoshindlala campaign of the Department of Agriculture is an
innovative measure aimed at eliminating hunger.  There must be close cooperation between the Department of Agriculture and the Social Welfare
Department so that the Department's mutual objectives can be realised.  I wish,
hon members, that a time will come when government will spend more on
funding of social development and population development programmes as
opposed to the way our budget is currently run.


  o F 

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Two minutes left.


  o F 
 
MR M V NGEMA:
  Investing in social development and population development
programmes, is the surest way of creating what Robert J Genetski called
creating a nation of millionaires, which is his dream for the American society. 
As members would agree with me, and I am glad the Minister referred to this,
the fact that none of the members here would bother to apply for social
security and other social benefits if you were millionaires.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.  I support the budget.


  o F 
 


HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr
Ngidi to address the House for 11 minutes.


  o F 0
 
MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):
  Thank you, Chairperson.  Again it is time to consider
the budget of the Department of Social Welfare and Population Development. 
This is a vote that we have to consider with an amount of thoroughness as it
addresses those who can least fend for themselves.  Transformation is one of
the objectives that this Government has set itself to achieve.  We then need to
ensure that this sector of our community is not left behind.  Transformation in
social welfare matters should mean more than just how we can improve on
hand(c)outs to the disadvantaged, it must also entail a paradigm shift in our
approach to these issues.

Up until now social welfare has tended to encourage a dependency syndrome
from its recipients.  Our aged and the infirm wait for that day, once a month,
to receive a few coins from government.  This must change.  The Department   ȕ        ""
!
!&&  
of Social Welfare and Population Development must not be regarded as a
Department of hand(c)outs, but as a forum of empowerment.  Empowerment in
our context means a transference of skills to our communities, particularly the
formerly disenfranchised, enabling them to move from lower planes of
development to higher planes while being equipped with the wherewithal to
independently eke out a living.  This means that the aged and the infirm must
be equipped with life skills to enable them to sever the umbilical cord of
dependence and set them up as a productive lot who can again feel needed and
useful to society.

Empowerment must be seen against the backdrop of the history of this
country.  It must be remembered that the bulk of pensioners have suffered long
under the yoke of institutional discrimination.  Born in abject conditions they
were given a less than second class education.  An education that did not equip
them with life skills, but ensured that they could understand the master as he
gave them instructions.  Job opportunities were restricted by influx control
laws and job reservation.  Those that were fortunate enough to get jobs were
engaged in nothing more than menial labour and received starvation wages.  As
a result they lived from hand to mouth with no possibility of making any saving. 
Consequently, in their final years, with their strength having deserted them,
they are without any form of income.  As a result they are totally dependent
on the monthly perquisite called a pension.

A word has to be said as to the mental state of our aged.  Though they may be
medically sane, their mental state is such that they do not have confidence in
themselves.  Having lived a life where they were from their childhood
bombarded with how cursed they were.  That their plight was as a result of
their sinful life.  That even as they were working, because of their indolence,
they were never going to make it and indeed they never did.  You then have
people who in their old age have no confidence in themselves.  Not only are
they not equipped with life skills, but their self(c)esteem has been dented to such
an extent that they see no way out of their plight.  Their life of dependency
further erodes whatever little self(c)respect is left.  The Government must change
this.

As a result of what has been said, Chairperson, we need at this stage to make
a critical appraisal of our social welfare programmes.  Do they address the root   -        ""
!
!&&  
cause of the problem, or are they just palliatives aimed at effecting temporal
relief?  Do our programmes address the historical imbalances brought about by
the apartheid regime?  Are the programmes that we have such as to begin to
turn things around and give hope to those who do not have it?  Can we say
that our programmes are such that they begin to restore self(c)respect and
confidence in people who for all intents and purposes were a lost generation? 

The budget is the mirror of our vision.  What is our vision?  Do we have the
personnel equipped with the necessary skills to implement this vision?  Do we
have the personnel motivated enough to be able to implement this vision?  Do
we have the personnel that understands this vision in social welfare terms? 
Our state of social workers leaves much to be desired, and this is one area that
needs urgently to be address.  

Presently, Chairperson, our budget, I argue, does not reflect a vision of bringing
about lasting solutions, even where we attempt this, our attempts are timid and
hesitant.

Is it for this reason that I would have to have a critical appraisal of our social
development programmes.  Firstly, I would like to say that the Legislature
through the relevant Portfolio Committee needs to be part and parcel of the
development of these programmes.  Secondly, the planning of these
programmes must be meticulous with clear targets and phases.  These phases
are to enable us to conduct re(c)evaluation exercises properly.  

It is my contention that a shift in resource allocation has to happen.  We must
put more money in those programmes that are meant to provide a lasting
solution to some of our problems.  In fact, it is a shame that we can discuss a
budget at this time and moment in history which reflects an amount of less
than 1% of the budget for social development programmes, as we see the
social development programmes have only been allocated 0,6% of the budget. 
It is an indictment on us.

This is what is meant by a paradigm shift.  It must be accompanied by a
resource redistribution.  We should also not be caught in the trap of regarding
social development programmes as just a string of self(c)help projects, but one   -        ""
!
!&&  
must get the sense that this is an integrated and coherent policy, capable of
addressing the root cause of the problem facing our pensioners.  One is
therefore not particularly enamoured by the departmental report as one does
not get that sense.  When it talks, for instance, of flagship programmes, one
does not get the sense as to how the Department plans to progress with the
pilot projects.  There is no information as to what effect these pilot projects
have had on our communities.  One hopes the Department will attend to these
weaknesses.

In supporting the budget, let me commend the Department for its attempts to
rid the Department of corrupt elements.  One notes the figures supplied by the
Department and hopes that one day we will eliminate the scourge.  However,
there are still areas that need attention, and one of them is the development of
a youth policy.  In spite of us talking about it every year, there is nothing that
seems to have been done on this score.  It is an area that needs urgent
attention.  We need to rescue our youth from the vagaries of a life of
deprivation, and we need to do that now.  It is important for the future of this
country.  I thank you.


  o F 
 


HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr Ngidi.  I now call upon the hon member
Miss Xulu to address the House for eight minutes.


  o F 0
 


MS M XULU: (Whip):
  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  I would like to congratulate
our hon Minister on his well prepared speech.  It gives members a lot of insight
into the Social Welfare and Pensions Department.  We are grateful to you, sir,
and your Department.

Welfare and pensions is considered as an important resource for our poor
communities.  For the many years that I have been on the Welfare Portfolio
Committee, I have come to understand the plight of our people and the
difficulties they face.  This Province is important for two reasons.

Firstly, KwaZulu(c)Natal is distinctive in that it has most people living below the
poverty datum line and we have he highest number of AIDS cases.  There is
something that really touches my heart and that is the plight of AIDS orphans.    Ș        ""
!
!&&  
Today I want to share my thoughts with you on this issue.

I believe it is time for Vusa iSiswe to restore the nation.  Our Province is in
crisis.  With more than one in five adults in the Province testing HIV positive,
we have become a growing tragedy.  The AIDS epidemic with the increasing
numbers of orphans and the breaking of family relations and community spirit
will mean that care and support for orphans will require material resources far
beyond that which is currently available.

Research shows that soon we are going to be dealing with an orphan
generation.  These young children who will watch their parents die will require
emotional, financial and psychological support.  We have to remember that not
all children can be placed in orphanages.  These children are going to suffer
from pain and rejection.  How are we going to deal with this?

Chairperson, the rapid increase of the HIV/AIDS will affect economic growth
and place a strain on the budget.  The major effect will be felt in welfare,
education and health.  Latest statistics indicate that two million people in
KwaZulu(c)Natal are HIV positive.  It is estimated that there will be 750 000
orphans in KwaZulu(c)Natal by the year 2010.  Who is going to care for this
orphan generation?  The cost to maintain these children is going to be
enormous.  Long term options such as adoption and the movement of children
through the system will be extremely slow and the correct ratio of staff to
children will be impossible to maintain.  Economic factors, social norms and
ignorance also play a role in babies being left at the roadsides, railway stations
and even in garbage containers.

We cannot close our eyes and think that it will go.  AIDS does not just kill
adults and make children orphans, it affects the economy by targeting young
adults between the ages of 20 and 45, normally the breadwinners and
providers of society (c) those who would pay taxes and support business
enterprises.  Worse still, it affects more women than men, and at younger ages,
depleting the country of its care givers.  The combination of factors means that
not only will we have a shortage of people to care for the elderly, the children
and the disabled, but we will have a shortage of breadwinners.  It is predicted
that because so many people are infected and so many taxpayers will die, the
State will not be able to find the money to take on the burden of supporting so   (tm)        ""
!
!&&  
many families though social security grants and pensions.  The orphan
generation is going to shape the future of South Africa.

Women also seem to be trapped in this web of poverty.  Poverty breeds a
number of problems such as unemployment, hunger, feelings of powerlessness
and lack of self(c)worth.  Added to this is the fact that attempts to contain the
disease are failing miserably.  Some people claim that the stigma attached to
the HIV/AIDS is what makes the affected scared to talk about it or to seek
help.  Recently, Mr Chairperson, we know that an AIDS activist, Gugu Dlamini
was killed, and her only sin was that she admitted that she had AIDS.


  o F 	
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Two minutes left.


  o F z

 
MS M XULU: (Whip):
  Another problem is the lack of empowerment of women. 
Unless women are in control of their own lives, HIV and AIDS is going to
increase.  We daily experience the problem of abandoned children or babies
with HIV.  The need to empower poverty stricken rural communities through
knowledge and financial resources is urgently needed.  Families have to be
strengthened and the community must become an "extended family" to care
for the millions of AIDS orphans.  The quality of upbringing which children are
given will directly affect the quality of life in the Province and in the society. 
Following the trend of other African countries, grandparents have been
increasingly taking on the role of parents for the growing population of orphans. 
This puts a further burden on the shoulders of the extended family, who are
already financially hard pressed.  The death of parents marks the beginning of
the deprivation of grandparents who are often uneducated, unemployed and
without income.  I thank you, sir.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F |
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you.  Next on the list of speakers is the hon
member Mrs Galea who will speak for six minutes.


  o F "
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F -
 
MRS C E GALEA:
  Thank you, Chairperson.  I wish to thank the hon member
Minister Prince Gideon Zulu and his Department for giving us the report   Ț        ""
!
!&&  
timeously, and to congratulate the Minister on this lengthy, but comprehensive
report.  I see he is busy there, but he did not catch that.

The allocation to the Welfare Department for the 1999/2000 financial year will
amount to R3,797 billion, of which 94% is spent on social security.

The role of the Department of Welfare to take the lead in creating the
conditions and incentives that foster social upliftment has been a difficult one.

As a result of budget cuts, welfare organisations find it difficult to deal with the
social evils that accompany job retrenchments, due to the poor economic
conditions.  The inability to combat crime has a very negative effect on family
structures and discipline among young people.  This places further pressure on
welfare organisations.  The Department of Welfare has not yet made adequate
provision for suitably housing children and juvenile criminals.

The Excelsior place of safety has beds for 70, but has 100 children.  The
Westville Prison has plus/minus 300 children under 18 awaiting trial.  The social
workers need to know the Child Care Act, and what to do in terms of those
awaiting trial.

Poverty, crime and poor services are the main factor affecting families' capacity
to care for their children.  Although most crime is found in non(c)urban areas,
violent crime is reaching extremely high levels in urban areas and could thwart
efforts to build a strong economy.  Furthermore, there are large numbers of
unemployed young people.

Of great concern is the inability of the Department to handle social security
cases efficiently due to backlogs, missing files and the slow response of the
SOCPEN system.

On 2 March I attended a meeting with the Durban region and our Chairperson
was present.  We heard of some of the problems facing the Department. 
Transport, they had 86 vehicles and they were old models, 1985 to 1989. 
They had lost seven vehicles to hijacking and theft, and there is a moratorium
on the purchase of vehicles.  But I see in the last vote there is R500 000 which
would go a way in helping these people.   ț        ""
!
!&&Ԍ(tm)For a subsidised vehicle one must travel 21 000 kilometres per annum.  In
some areas this mileage is not reached, so the social workers cannot service
the needs of the area covered, as they have to share a vehicle.  It is suggested
that Transport looks at leasing direct from the factory, or buy from reliable
secondhand dealers so that the money can go further.

Equipment (c) typewriters are old, and staff have to submit handwritten reports. 
Monitors were needed on telephones.  Computers' response time was slow. 
Partitioning was needed in some offices.  With the funding they received, they
are not addressing issues and there will be a perpetuation of problems into next
year, and to the next.

Development projects.  There are two types.  Those done by the Department
and the funding of NGOs.  After visiting the Umzumbe office, we visited some
of the development projects in the area.  We went to Mrs Shangase's
Hlaganani club.  They have 106 members.  They made bread on Mondays and
Fridays and did weaving and sewing.  They also had a luncheon club.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Two minutes left.


  o F 
 
MRS C E GALEA:
  The Health Portfolio recently had a report on the integrated
nutrition programme where learners at 258 schools was receiving a morning
snack, and 450 jobs were created.  In many other departments, for example
Agriculture and Health, they are doing development projects.  Those involved
in creating the projects should liaise and have an integrated approach with the
other departments so that they can produce what is needed by the community
and the surrounding schools.  Communities could be empowered with the
necessary skills and knowledge to become self(c)reliant with regards to their food
and nutritional needs, and by finding outlets like schools for their bread and
juice making could therefore become self(c)sustainable.

The development centre in Illovo is welcomed.  The Department's vision that
the development centre could become a replicable model for sustainable
development in other areas will go a long way in meeting the needs of the
communities concerned.  I was happy to see that Vuma in Eshowe has also
been earmarked.
   Ȝ         ""
!
!&&  ԌCommunity work is complex, unique and divergent and requires adaptation to
local conditions.  A country's community work will be formed by each
community's value system and the needs within the current political,
economical and social conditions.  The New National Party believe that the
essence of community work is to create new opportunities for people that will
strengthen and empower them.

In closing, as this is the last time that I will be participating in welfare debates,
I wish to thank my colleagues in the Portfolio Committee and the Department
for all the assistance they have given me over the past five years to help the
people in our Province.  I thank you.


  o F 

 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F \

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mrs Galea.  I now call upon the hon member
Mr Mfayela to address the House for eight minutes.  The hon member Mrs
Galea must switch off her microphone.


  o F 
 
MR D P MFAYELA:
  Mr Chairperson, hon members.  It always makes one happy
and very proud when he or she becomes one of those who makes a
contribution in this important budget debate that touches the hearts of our
loved ones.

Our KwaZulu(c)Natal Province is very lucky to have an honest man of your
calibre, Mageba.  Our disabled and homeless people, street children and old
aged people etcetera have put their hope on your Department in order for you
to help with feeding them.

We all about know the implications and difficulties that are facing this
Department.  The officials of this Department are being robbed and attacked. 
But we are proud and despite the fact that some have been killed, the
Department continues to do their work and they have not given up on
supporting the nation.  Keep it up brothers and sisters.

We all need to praise this Department for the manner in which they conducted
the re(c)registration process.  It was fruitful.  In my district which is Ndwedwe,
we were impressed by the manner in which those people conducted themselves   ȝ        ""
!
!&&  
while they were handling our pensioners.

The Department must send our best wishes to the youth that portrayed a good
image for the Department.  I am sure all those skeletons are going to come out
of the cupboard and our Department of Social Welfare and Population
Development will grow stronger and stronger.

Therefore, Mr Chairperson, hon members, I thank all the officials of this
Department for their commitment to make this budget before us so clear and
understandable.  With these few words I must thank you, Mr Minister, and
support the budget.


  o F 

 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F \

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr Mfayela.  I now call upon the hon member
Mr Nel to address the House for five minutes.


  o F 
 
MR W U NEL:
  Mr Chairman, this is indeed one of the problem departments,
and in saying so I am not necessarily referring to the Department in the way
that it does its job, but the fact is, this is perhaps more than any department,
one that works with sort of limitless demands and needs with a very limited
budget, and there will never be enough money.  Just looking at the succinct
description in the Minister's report, the speech today, that his Department is
committed to protecting the vulnerable, to strengthen the weak and to foster
self(c)reliance.  That is a tall order indeed, and for that we have sympathy with
the Minister and his Department.

I want to move to the key policy objectives that are stated in the Minister's
speech.  The three of them, the first one to eliminate inequalities and improve
access to the Department's resources and services.  That is indeed I think a
very important and an urgent thing to be achieved, because if we look, for
example, at the child care programme, that was one where in fact there was
money available but the Department did not manage to get sufficient children
and their care givers to subscribe to the programme.  We hope that more will
be achieved on that score this year, as indeed the programme envisages.

The second key objective was to facilitate the provision of appropriate   Ȟ         ""
!
!&&  
developmental and social welfare services, educating people in principles of
development and socialising them into accepting that the Department will not
forever be able to spend all its budget provisions on the giving of care.  That
is going to be extremely difficult, but a very important objective for this
Department to achieve.  However, I doubt that it is able to achieve it in a
situation where 94% of the budget is going simply to the payment of pensions,
and there therefore is very little other money left to do this important and
extensive education job.

Then lastly, the key objective listed here, the third one, was to promote and
strengthen partnerships between government, the community, society, religious
groups and the private sector with respect to delivery of services.  Certainly
those partnerships must be fostered, because they are important and one can
refer, for example, to the Rotary project for the provision of school classrooms
where they received donations from companies, from private individuals, from
NGOs, literally to the tune of hundreds of classrooms that were built in this
Province over the last 10 years and more.  Hundreds of classrooms free of
charge because people were prepared to put their money where their mouth is,
provided they could see that there was a result at the end of the tunnel.  We
hope that this Department will also be able to encourage people to participate
in these ventures, and also to help to stretch their budget a bit further.

But the one omission that I see in this third key objective is liaison with other
government departments.  I raise that because we have now had the
departments, Health has not come yet, but we have had Agriculture, we have
the Department of Welfare and Local Government, several departments all of
whom are engaged in various educational practical courses all over the
Province, whether it be sewing projects or growing of vegetables.  All of those
things, laudable as they are, I wonder if we are getting the maximum benefit
if departments are each doing their own thing.  I think quite frankly they are
stretching their resources far too thinly to achieve maximum results in this very
important endeavour.  I would urge the Minister to look at not only partnerships
with outsiders, but effective partnerships with his colleagues in Cabinet and
their departments so that we can achieve success.

There are a few other matters that the hon Minister raised.
   ȟ         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  One minute left.


  o F 
 
MR W U NEL:
  One of which was violence against women, which I must say
struck me as being a rather soft issue in his report.  Violence against women
is an abomination upon this nation, and I think it is something that needs to be
eradicated root and branch as a matter of urgency, because it is a violation of
their dignity, it is an injury to their self(c)esteem, not to even mention the
physical part of it, and there are even some worse connotations which I do not
care to mention today.  It is something we need to rid ourselves of as a matter
of urgency.

With those few words, strength to the arm in what is really almost an
unachievable task.


  o F \

 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F  

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you.  Next on the list of speakers is the hon
member Mr Dingila who will address the House for eight minutes.


  o F 
 
MR T F DINGILA:
  Hon Chair, it is always a pleasure to debate this vote,
because it directly addresses the needs of the poor, old, disabled and
disadvantaged people.  It does not only help the poor, it also has a direct
impact on the economy of the rural areas, meaning that the shopkeepers,
poultry farmers and all the other traders also benefit from such pension days.

It is a fact that there are no roses without thorns.  There are some irregularities
in this Department, like all other departments, but I am highly impressed by the
good job which is always performed by the Minister to combat crime.  Together
with Mr Mhlongo, his Secretary, they always keep the taxpayers informed
about what is happening to those individuals who cheat.

I would like to make a plea, as my colleague Mr D P Mfayela mentioned, that
in Ndwedwe we were very fortunate, this time, to get people who were
prepared to help with the re(c)registration, who were very co(c)operative and who

  o F -
 were treating all the people as their parents.  In the Bible is says, "

Hlonipha

  o F -
 uyihlo nonyoko ukuze izinsuku zakho zande ezweni".  ["Honour your father and
your mother so that your days on earth can be longer"].            ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
MR T F DINGILA:
 

I also really commend the choice, I do not know how and I
do not know whether they were recruiting co(c)operative and young people who
were very respectful.  Unlike other young men whom I have met many a time,
in various areas, where they treat adults like dogs, and it always hurts me. 
Mostly such things happen in the urban areas, and I do not know where they
get such people.  This is just my opinion, that there were some people who
some time ago told the youth to make this country ungovernable.  So if you
can influence young people like that, then they think by treating their parents
in a wild manner they could make this country ungovernable.


  o F 

 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION


  o F \

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Order please!


  o F  

 
MR T F DINGILA:
  As a result, this country now is ungovernable.  But, sir, I am
so grateful that we have got people like our Minister here, old people who
know young people are fools.


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  How are they making this Province ungovernable?


  o F l
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Order!  Order please!


  o F 0
 
MR T F DINGILA
    But young people and some adults, as I said earlier on, who
always like to influence young people thinking they are great, I will make an
example.  Ndabezitha ngibonga kakhulu ngoba emnyangweni wakho Mageba
uyahlola, uhlele ngenxa yokuthi unguMzulu owaziyo ukuthi umtomdala
uyahlonishwa.

Kukhona Mr Chair sir, abantu ababephuma right out of their way betshela
izingane ukuthi aziphume yonke indawo zenze izwe lingabuseki.  Kepha bathe
uma sekuyiwa kwi(c)list labobantu bazikhipha lezozingane.

And Ndabezitha kuwena emnyangweni wakhe izingane ebezikade zibhalisa
bezifundisiwe, beninohlelo enizikhetheyo kube izingane zeqophelo ezinakekelayo
kubantu abadala.   ȡ        ""
!
!&&Ԍ(tm)Ingane uma ithatha umuntu ubone ukuthi ithatha engathi umzali wayo. 
Sikubonge kakhulu Mageba lokho, sengathi ungaphuma uye nakweminye
iminyango ubafundise ngokufanayo.


  o F 
 
TRANSLATION:  
Ndabezitha, I am very grateful that in your Department you
evaluate and organise because you are a Zulu person who understands that an
elderly person should be respected.

Mr Chairperson, Sir, there were people who went right out of their way telling
the youth to come out from everywhere and make the country ungovernable. 
But, when it came to the list, those people excluded the youth.  And
Ndabezitha, the youth that were performing registration in your Department
were well groomed.  You had a programme of selecting young people who had
cared highly for older people. 

When a young person dealt with someone, you could see that he or she took
that person as his or her own parent.  We were very grateful for that Mageba. 
We wish you could go out and in the same way, teach other departments.  T/E

Now this country is ungovernable ...


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F N
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Order!  Order please!


  o F 
 
MR T F DINGILA:
  But I am grateful that the IFP has come out openly and said
they intend making this country governable.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F |
 
MR T F DINGILA:
  It is in black and white on all the streets, even in the rural
areas.  That is the gospel the IFP is preaching.  Contrary to what was taught
and was preached by other parties.  So I am making a plea, Mr Chairman, to
all parties, if they are here to last, not unless there are people that do not know
that if the worse comes to worse they will go out of the country and start
complaining that they are ill(c)treated here.  If people in this House today are
people who intend staying in this country, they would not try to make it   Ȣ        ""
!
!&&  
ungovernable, they should join the IFP and sing the same song.  Let us make
this country governable.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F j
 
MR T F DINGILA:
  Mr Chair, I do congratulate the ANC for having been able to
produce a young man like the hon member Mr Kubheka.  Nevertheless, I am
still very sceptical.  If he could follow in the footsteps, for example, of the hon
member Mr F Dlamini, across there, who is always quiet and a gentleman.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Two minutes left.


  o F 

 
MR T F DINGILA:
  But if he is going to follow in the footsteps of people like
Miss So(c)and(c)so, or like Mr So(c)and(c)so, he is going to step out of line.  He should
follow the example of the right people.

Mr Chairman, to close my debate, I would rather suggest that that young man,
before he is spoilt, crosses the floor and joins the right party.  I thank you, sir.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 


THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Order please!  I wish to now call upon the hon member
Mr Mkhwanazi to address the House for four minutes.


  o F 0
 
MR J D MKHWANAZI:
  Thank you very much.  Oh, I am glad I have some
comrades in this House.  They know that this is their land.  Thank you very
much.  

Mr Chairman, I would like to congratulate the Minister on his speech, albeit
quite lengthy.  It was very informative and leaves  little opportunity for
questions to be asked.

First of all, I want to thank our Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee, Mr
Ngema, who is not present.  I do not see him in his seat (c) Oh, he is there (c) for
having assisted us as a Committee.  We worked very well.  All the parties
worked very well.  All the parties chose the right people for this Committee. 
I will not name them.  Some of them have been named, but the right people   ȣ        ""
!
!&&  
were concerned about the disadvantaged people, the disabled.

The Ministry's Secretary, Mr Mhlongo, did everything in his power to attend all
the meetings of the Committee whenever he was requested to.  I think this
Portfolio Committee is amongst those that have really worked hard in order to
do their job.

I want to congratulate the Department for having done a lot to decrease
corruption.  People have been arrested and people are serving sentences.  That
was hard work.  The Minister had to strengthen his hand in order to do that. 

  o F 
 Aqinise izandla uMntwana nabanye abamsizayo  [the Prince and his staff had

  o F 	
 to strengthen his hand].


  o F z

 

Also, what should be appreciated is somehow the hold ups angazi ukubanjwa

  o F \

 kwenkunzi yabantu beyohola

,  [hold ups, and the mugging of people on their

  o F >

 way to paypoints], has sort of decreased.  There was a time when it was very
rampant.


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  By APLA.


  o F 
 
MR J D MKHWANAZI:
  APLA never killed one person like the other people. 
Another thing that must be appreciated is that we do have a few concerns.  For
example what is the Department's view on the street men and women, not the
street children, who go to schools to disrupt the schools, and who cause a lot
of disturbance in schools?


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  One minute left.


  o F 
 
MR J D MKHWANAZI:
  What is the Ministry doing about that?  The Minister
repeatedly said, I cannot quote him now, that the Department has not got
adequate assistance particularly for those people who are disadvantaged.  The
Minister referred to that several times and I think this must be attended to.  As
I have said, the formerly disadvantaged people are still disadvantaged if you put
them on an equal basis with those who were advantaged.  That is where the
problem is.  We should concentrate on those who were disadvantaged in order
to catch up with those that were advantaged.  It is a pity that we have some
people who want to cause a disturbance, I do not know what they get out of   Ȥ        ""
!
!&&  
it.  One day I will tell them off.  I thank you.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, hon member.  Next on the speaker's list is the
hon member Mrs Downs who will address the House for seven minutes.


  o F .
 
MRS J M DOWNS:
  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, I am actually
standing here and hoping that the members that remain in this House are going
to really listen to what I have got to say.  This really comes from my heart.  I
really care about this issue and I would like to see this House do something
about it.  I just want to quote some figures to you.  Some figures were
released, and some of the things I am going to talk about actually cross three
provincial committees and probably a couple of national committees as well. 
It is the issue of dealing with children in this Province.  Let me just give you
some figures.

14 223 children under the age of 18 were raped.  679 children were
sodomised.  171 children had incest perpetrated on them.  There were 3 451
indecent assaults against children under the age of 12.  750 sexual offences. 
292 attempted murder against children.  3 584 incidents of serious assault
against children.  3 893 cases of common assault against children.  914
abductions.  1 116 kidnappings.  More than 3 400 investigations in terms of
the Child Care Act.  1 395 investigations of public indecency perpetrated
against children, and more than 1 300 children have disappeared from their
homes.  Those are facts released by the police services that cannot be argued
with.

Cases that have crossed my desk, my ACDP welfare desk in the last week, in
just one week: a child that was removed to a child care home on the Bluff, a
naughty kid, one that ran away from home and had to be restrained by the
State, but nonetheless, in need of protection, was placed in the home on the
Bluff and was there molested by one of the other children.  She went to the
social worker in charge of her case, and the authorities.  She got no joy.  She
threatened to kill herself and she finally tried.  No one would listen to her.

An eight year old child in Westville Prison was sodomised eight times in one   ȥ         ""
!
!&&  
night by other children under the age of 18, and to date no one has been
arrested for that crime and nothing has been done about it.

A 16 year old child approached our desk for help because they could get no joy
from the Welfare Department.  Both parents have died, the child has three small
children to take care of and no support from the Department.  They actually do
not need financial support, but they need other support to help care for those
children.  It is very difficult for a 16 year old child to take on three other
children and continue at school.

It was just reported to me yesterday that at a local hospital in KwaZulu(c)Natal
there are babies that are disappearing from the hospital, abandoned babies. 
This was reported to me by one of the hospital workers, the nurses in the
hospital.  The problem seems to be that the hospital social workers will not sign
a Form 4, and you guys will know better than me what a Form 4 is in the
Department.  The CPUs will not sign a Form 4.  The Welfare Department will
not sign a Form 4 because those babies then have to be placed into
somebody's care.  What is happening is that people are pitching up at the
hospital with no ID, with no form of identification whatsoever, claiming to be
either the child's granny, aunt or uncle and taking the children out of the
hospital.  The fear that the hospital workers have is that these children are
being used for muthi.  I cannot prove that, but this is what was related to me
by the hospital workers.  

I also know that there will be 800 000 AIDS orphans by the year 2005.  When
the Department was questioned in the Portfolio Committee, they said that there
was no budget available to do anything at all about caring for these AIDS
orphans.  There are already 150 000 AIDS orphans in this country, and we do
not have a plan to take care of them.  That has been confirmed by yourself.

These things concern me.  They really do.  I believe, and I am not speaking for
anybody else, because I believe to a certain extent most adults can make a plan
and look after themselves if they really try.  There are very few that absolutely
cannot.  But children are the most vulnerable members of our society, and we
have failed our children.  We have really failed our children, and we are
continuing to fail our children.
   Ȧ         ""
!
!&&  ԌArising out of these cases, we see the need for a kind of child ombudsman,
because many of the most vulnerable children in our society, when they make
a complaint still have no protection.  They have to rely on an adult to take up
that complaint on their behalf.  Where do orphans go, where do abused children
go, where do children who have no other recourse than the Welfare
Department which is not serving their needs, where do they go to get the relief
that they seek?  I believe that this Legislature has an opportunity to do
something about it.  I am speaking now specifically to the Chairperson of the
Portfolio Committee.  Two years have elapsed since the time we submitted the
Child Commissioner Bill.  We looked at that Child Commissioner Bill in depth as
a Portfolio Committee.  Three times the Committee agreed to meet.  In the
October recess, in the December recess and last month.


  o F z

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  One minute left.


  o F >

 
MRS J M DOWNS:
  To finalise matters concerning this Bill, and three times
somehow we could not find a place for it on our calendar.  Mr Chairman, I
really want to appeal, I was going to make all sorts of speeches about we
ought to hang our heads in shame for petty politicking and so on, but I have
given that up.  I really want to make an appeal to this House, Mr Chairman,
please let us consider that Bill and get it into the calendar for the Portfolio.  We
can meet while we are sitting, and put it before this House, because I truly
believe that a child ombudsman, where all matters relating to children legislated
across departments, can help in these cases.  I thank you, Mr Chair.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mrs Downs.  I now wish to call upon the hon
member Mrs Mchunu to address the House for eight minutes.


  o F 
 
MRS A MCHUNU:
  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.  The work done by the
hon Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development and his Department
deserve high praise.  Their untiring efforts to follow up reported incidents of
corruption and mismanagement is highly commended.

It is a well(c)known fact that the budget provided for any department is never
enough.  Due to the devaluation of the Rand and rise in the inflation rate,
matters will only worsen.
   ȧ         ""
!
!&&  ԌThe mission of the Department of Social Welfare and Population Development
to provide, promote and develop comprehensive people(c)centred social welfare
services to individuals, groups and communities to maximise their inherent
constructive potential in KwaZulu(c)Natal is very much appreciated.

I thank the Department for adding programme 5 on social development. 
Society security and social welfare services may be on the verge of collapsing
in the near future if South Africa's economy is not revived and there are no
investments.

Through the social development programme, the disadvantaged people will be
helped to maximise their inherent constructive potential by saving their cents
and their own Rands and having credit unions.  I have visited the Social Welfare
and Pensions offices and learnt that the staff is already being trained in credit
unionism and co(c)operatives.  This will be true education and training.  People
with no wealth are people with no health.  People with no health are sick
people, facing death.  Poor, sick people need to bank their money in their own
community banks.  Community wealth will help poor people to achieve optimal
health status, as we have always said in the Department of Health.

Credit unions and co(c)operatives are going to interweave into all the
departments as all the citizens of KwaZulu(c)Natal have to be trained in this form
of saving money, and working together cooperatively with proper business
plans and proper accounting systems.

A training centre for credit unionism and co(c)operatives was built in Eshowe
through the efforts of His Grace, Bishop M D Biyase of the Eshowe Roman
Catholic Diocese, who invited Reverend John J McIver from Canada in 1978
to the then erstwhile KwaZulu to train communities in credit unionism and cooperatives.  His Excellency Dr M G Buthelezi assisted in getting the visa for
Father McIver to settle in KwaZulu.  Training objectives were, and still are:


  o F @
 1. X""
 To equip communities with a basic financial banking system;"

  o F "
 2. X""
To expose communities to sound co(c)operative principles;"

  o F -
 3. X""
 To enable unbankable communities to successfully run their own
people's banks."
   Ȩ         ""
!
!&&  ԌI am grateful that the hon Minister Prince Zulu has indicated that there are
development centres, that is at Illovo and Vuma, for skills training.  It is hoped
that credit unionism and co(c)operative principles will be included in the
curriculum for the development of their skills.

The House is very lucky in that our hon Minister Mrs E E N Kankosi(c)Shandu, as
well as the hon member Mr M V Ngema have been trained in credit unionism
in Canada, and are quite a good instrument in spreading credit unionism.  So
they can be utilised anywhere in these training objectives.

Again, if at all we were to promote credit unionism, we have got to bear in
mind that this works better with agricultural activities.  As ploughing oxen die
as a result of drought and commercial tractors are too expensive for poor
communities, subsidising petrol driven ploughs could be looked into.  

We are in the era of HIV/AIDS where people are so weak and they must have
something that can be easily used in order to plough their own gardens.  So
subsidising these ploughs may help a lot.  The poverty pockets with households
living below the minimum living level, for instance, Msinga at 96 and
Umzumbe, Ingwavuma at 91, may still benefit from this subsidy.

I am quite grateful that the hon Premier has indicated that he intends reviving
the Bureau of Community Development, because in the old KwaZulu, this is the
Bureau that assisted in spreading credit unions to most of the areas in
KwaZulu.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Two minutes left.


  o F 
 
MRS A MCHUNU:
  We do need to revive this, and quite a lot can be done by
this Bureau.

The HIV pandemic is too terrible to mention, and a few people, especially
blacks will have a few of their family members remaining to carry their names
through.  Let us look at this seriously and really check on our moral values.  I
do not know whether Viagra is really needed here, which may promote the
activities of casanovas.  The services of family planning clinics, I do not know
whether they are serving any purpose when so many of our teenagers have   (c)        ""
!
!&&  
AIDS and it is spreading like wild fire.

The budget allocated to the Department is welcome and is supported, but we
must bear in mind that a lot of self(c)help and self(c)reliance needs to be done.  We
are there as volunteers to train people in credit unionism.  I thank you.


  o F L
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mrs Mchunu.  I now wish to call upon the
hon member Mr Naicker to address the House for five minutes.


  o F 	
 
MR S V NAICKER:
  Mr Chairman, at the very outset I also want to add my
compliments to the Minister of Social Welfare for his comprehensive report
here.  Of course, the report in itself mirrors just about everything that is
required in the field of welfare.  Welfare in this particular instance is
multifaceted.  So therefore it is not absolutely possible for us to cover this
entire field. 

However, very much of the credit must also go to the administration and the
political head, but behind that political head is the administration which is the
machinery, and this Department indeed has well oiled machinery.  But
unfortunately, having heard the Chairman of the Portfolio Committee, Mr
Ngema, speak about appointments in the Department, I do not honestly believe
that at this juncture or perhaps at the tail end of the five year period, officials
have not been appointed.  In the absence of departmental structures, it is not
possible to function satisfactory, and I do hope that those positions,
departmentally, should be considered by the commission.  It has been topical
throughout the five years that we have been here, not only in this Department,
but in other departments.

I also at this stage want to, with your permission, sir, pay my special respects
to one of the members of the Portfolio Committee, and that is to the hon Mrs
Connie Galea who is to retire.  An individual of outstanding quality.  Upright,
honest, dedicated and devoted to her work.  To those that have known her
dedication will appreciate that her absence can be ill(c)afforded in this Parliament.


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Hear! Hear!   Ȫ         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
MR S V NAICKER:
  I want to also at this stage compliment the Chairman of the
Portfolio Committee of Welfare, a real gentleman who understands human
relations and made tremendous progress as a Chairman.

The abuse of the aged revolves around the pillars of financial, physical and
emotional issues.  There were some stark realities of figures that were given
by Mrs Downs.  In actual fact she spoke from her heart.  If we take into
account the figures that she gave today, obviously we are to appreciate the
responsibility that rests on our shoulders, given the painful situation.

Indeed, in this regard, I commend the National Department at this instance for
the introduction of the Aged Persons Amendment Bill which was recently
passed through Parliament and will set up an abuse register.

The re(c)registration of pensions and other grants.  We applaud the Department
to attempt to rid the systems of fraud and corruption, but we strongly criticise
the timing of the re(c)registration drive as it clashes with the voter registration,
causing much anxiety and confusion, and what is more, the task has been
assigned to consultants Group Africa.  I want to make a point here, Mr
Chairman, that we have had many complaints from community leaders about
non(c)co(c)operation.  We have got community leaders throughout this Province
who are willing to help, and I want to call upon the Department to advise the
consultants Group Africa to coordinate with those community leaders to help
them in this process.

There was a sigh of relief from the pensioners that the Minister is to extend the
deadline perhaps to the end of April, but what assurance is there that those
who are still awaiting receipt of their bar(c)coded ID's prerequisites will not be
prejudiced?


  o F |
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  One minute left.


  o F @
 
MR S V NAICKER:
  We therefore suggest that all applications must be taken
with a bar(c)coded ID and understand that they have applied for an ID.  This
emphasis I make against the backdrop of the ID document scandal which we
have all witnessed recently.
   "         ""
!
!&&  ԌThe gender discrimination, Mr Chairman, despite the provisions of the new
Constitution, males who apply for pensions must wait until 65 years and
women to the age 60.  How many firms will employ men over 60, and how
many over the age of 60 years are successful in job applications?  What will
happen if this discrimination results in a constitutional challenge?  Can our
Minister not consider this measure from a provincial competence?

As far as child social workers are concerned.  There is very little more to be
spoken than that which has been said by the hon Mrs Downs.  We must take
note of the comments that she made, and the emotional manner in which she
conveyed the message to this House.

Phasing out of maintenance grants, maintenance grants used to be up to age
18.  Parent and child allowances, last year grants were cut to one(c)third, this
year they will be cut by another third in the coming year, sir.


  o F  

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  The hon member's time is up.


  o F 
 
MR S V NAICKER:
  Thank you very much.


  o F 
 


HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F l
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mrs
Ford to address the House for eight minutes.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
MRS O E FORD:
  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, our hon Minister and
members of this House.  Firstly, I would like to say congratulations to the
Minister for his insightful and informative report, it truly epitomises the
Department's vision of an improved quality of life for all families and
communities.  At the same time, the Department is putting in place the building
blocks which will transform the welfare system.  Yet, we need to remind
ourselves none of these transformatory changes can emerge without adequate
money.  Criticism of this budget is all well and good, but without sufficient
money, projects are impossible to implement.
   Ȭ         ""
!
!&&  ԌThere is no doubt that the eradication of poverty and the reduction of inequality
are key challenges confronting our society.  However, not much can be
achieved in terms of tangible delivery if departments are under(c)funded.  Despite
this, the Department was able to deliver quality service.  1998 may have been
a year of financial scarcity, but it was still a year of immense achievement. 
The delivery of social grants and pensions received top priority, as well as the
anti(c)poverty programme.  With the previously separate social security systems
amalgamated, there has been progress in eliminating inefficiency, duplication
and removing from the system those who no longer qualify.  I personally would
like to say congratulations to the Department in my town of Estcourt.  They
handled the re(c)registration superbly.


  o F 

 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F \

 
MRS O E FORD:
  The Department also adopted the provincial Programme of
Good Governance, and made great strides in achieving its governance
objectives.  At this stage, I would like to reiterate the Premier's statement:

 X""
 We have to respond to the realities and the challenges of our times. 
Our leadership must deliver services in spite of inadequate finances. 
By all means, our leadership must transcend financial limitations and
extend the value of the Rand to the maximum and beyond."

We should remember that the Department's policies and programmes target the
poor and the most vulnerable.  The severe financial setbacks last financial year
heightened the Department's commitments to providing people(c)centred social
welfare services.

Despite the many programmes initiated by the Social Welfare Department, there
are certain blockages that need to be addressed.  Yes, there were programmes
that suffered serious setbacks last financial year, but founding policies have
been put into place.  As our funding hopefully increases, the Department will
be set to roll out a meaningful delivery programme.

I also want to emphasise that the Department is committed, not merely on the
basis of statutory obligations, but wants to ensure that pensioners' rights to
having a pension is met.  It is also important that collection points for pensions   ȭ        ""
!
!&&  
must be safe and accessible.  Apart from the administration of new
applications, the Department has had to deal with a vast number of cases of
lapses in pensions.

Some of the challenges facing the elderly are, the older people do not have
credit banks, consequently they have to pay exorbitant service charges.  In
desperation, they go to money(c)lenders and, as the Usuary Act does not
stipulate the limit on interest to be charged, these people are caught up in a
lifetime of debt.

Moreover, the declining budgets and greater demands on limited resources have
forced most governments to review their welfare policies to devolve more
responsibility onto their families and communities.  The Department now
recognises older people as a pool of talent and expertise in society, and seeks
to empower older people to contribute to family life.  The Department is also
developing new models of community based care for the aged and will set up,
implement and monitor such projects.

Mr Chairman, I have heard, in this hon House, that the party on this side of the
House has been accused of politicising the payment of pensions and other
grants.  Really, talk about calling pots and kettles names!  


  o F l
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 0
 
MRS O E FORD:
  Last year, when the hon Minister Fraser(c)Moleketi went to the
rescue of pensioners in the Eastern Cape, we saw the most blatant example of
political opportunism.  She, the hon Minister, appeared in the media in all her
ANC colours, which I am sure gave those poor recipients the mistaken idea that
it was the ANC who were being so caring.


  o F |
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F @
 
MRS O E FORD:
  What had actually happened to those funds budgeted for
pensions and grants in the Eastern Cape?  Who knows?  Do you, Happy,
because you look as if you do?


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS   (r)         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)


MRS O E FORD:
  In closing, Mr Chairman, I would like to congratulate the
Minister, and his Department, on the way they are combatting fraud and
corruption, and to say that I support his budget.  Thank you.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F L
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mrs Ford.  I wish to now call upon the hon
member Mr Dlamini to address the House for 20 minutes.


  o F 

 
MR F DLAMINI:
  Thank you, Chairperson.  Chairperson, from the onset I would
like to commend the National Welfare Department on its achievement in respect
of programmes for poverty alleviation, and one would like to say that from the
report or the Minister's speech, we would like to see this extended to the
Province.  These represent a quantum leap from where we were before 1994. 
We are, however, mindful of the fact that the eradication of poverty in this
country is largely dependent on a multidisciplinary approach, and also on the
availability of finances, and the political will from all parties as opposed to
destructive criticism.

The paradigm shift in social service delivery needs to be speeded up.  Mr
Minister, at the beginning of your speech you reiterated self(c)reliance, and this
is most welcome because it is actually illustrated throughout your speech that
you and your Department or Ministry is creating a climate for self(c)reliance.

On the question of speeding up social service delivery, I say this knowing very
well that we are operating under financial constraints.  We need to point out
that there is still too much casework done in the social welfare practice, as
opposed to social development programmes.  We hope that an increase of 73%
in programme 5 will help the Department to start doing something about this
programme.  It was encouraging also to hear the National Minister at NCOP
discussing some of the social development projects which have restored human
dignity to the poorest of the poor.  We hope emerging programmes are going
to do the same in this Province.  She also indicated a budgetary provision under
programme 5 of the national budget as being set aside for capacity building
workshops in the provinces.

The challenge of transformation in social welfare is bigger than meets the eye.    ȯ         ""
!
!&&  
Whilst the issue of social development should be the preoccupation of the
Social Welfare Department, there is a critical question of human resource
development.  At this point in time, we wish to acknowledge the filling of posts
at middle management level, and we hope they will add value to the
Department, and perhaps the report is an indication of things to come, and we
wish them well and we know that they are going to be faced with a lot of
challenges to bring about the transformation that is required.

To date there has been no visible training of human resources to improve the
quality of work.  The only training thus far, which was also mentioned by the
Minister, has been the orientation to help the staff shift from the old social
welfare approach to developmental social welfare.

The Minister of Finance, in his report under vote 13, Social Welfare, says, I
quote:

 X""
 The allocation is based on a thorough calculation of the actual
expenditure of the Department in the current financial year."

This suggests that the Department of Welfare did not indicate serious shortfalls
in their proposed budget.  On the other hand, the Department of Welfare, as we
know, has told the Portfolio Committee that the Department is short of 66
vehicles.  This is one department where personnel cannot operate effectively
without vehicles, because they deal with the poorest of the poor.  They deal
with people whose circumstances are such that they have to be seen in their
communities, whether it is casework, group work or community development.

We know that offices under this Department have no equipment, such as
computers or at least old fashioned typewriters.  As a result of this, social
workers present handwritten reports for their court work.  This scarcity of
resources needs to be taken very seriously, because it destroys the morale of
social workers.

Another indicator for poor performance is illustrated in the social security
section.  There is still a backlog on social security payments.  Social security
offices are apparently staffed with very junior staff.  We need to express
concern that the social security budget has been decreased by 5% in   Ȱ        ""
!
!&&  
anticipation of savings from the elimination of fraud.  Re(c)registration stood at
49,23% as at 12 March 1999, implying a lot of work still to be done.  With the
anticipation of a growth of 2,2% in social security recipients, we are in fact
talking about a shortfall of 7,2% in programme 2.  Our Minister of Finance in
this Province made a very wise comment in his response to the budget debate
when he said: "Stopping fraud does not generate revenue, but saves us
expense". 

The child support grant is, as we know, an integral part of the poverty
alleviation effort.  We commend our Provincial Minister of Social Welfare for
initiating an extensive community campaign to disseminate information to
communities on the child support grant.  We must, however, stress that our
Province has, in spite of these efforts by the Minister, performed very poorly
in respect of child support grant applications.  A point that has been made by
the Department is that some social workers are not very enthusiastic about the
child support grant.  Some of the reasons below will indicate why.

We have looked beyond this assumption and/or allegation.  We have identified
blockages emanating from the Home Affairs Department.  Accessing necessary
documents for the processing of the child support grant is a nightmare, and
hence the frustration of social workers.  IDs are not readily available. 
Children's birth certificates require going through a cumbersome process,
especially where the mother of the child is not readily available.

The crux of the matter is that the Home Affairs Department is not geared to
offer a speedy and satisfactory service, especially in the deep rural areas.  The
following illustration may help to explain this point.  In the Durban region of
Social Welfare and Population Development, Home Affairs has computers for
processing birth certificates and IDs in Port Shepstone, Durban and Stanger
only.  The rest of the Home Affairs offices in this region, and in fact throughout
the Province, with the exception of a few towns, is rather like post offices that
shunt application documents forwards and backwards.  There is an urgent need
for the Social Welfare Department to sort this problem out with the Home
Affairs Department, or else this Province will never be able to deliver the child
support grant effectively within the required time.

An increase of R5 million in programme 3, social assistance, is welcomed.  It   ȱ         ""
!
!&&  
could have been more welcome for reasons stated hereafter under programme
4, were it not for the following reasons:


  o F 
 (c) X""
 There has been a very minimal increase in after school centres or day
care centres.  This in fact is one of the methods of protecting children
against abuse."


  o F .
 (c) X""
 There has been no increase whatsoever on the item of places of safety
for children with AIDS and care centres.  This is a matter of grave
concern.  With astronomically increasing numbers of HIV/AIDS
orphans, one would have anticipated better planning.  Lack of planning
in this area demonstrates a blind spot in our effort to fighting the
scourge of HIV/AIDS.  Thank goodness the Minister assured us that
the Department is in the process of developing a provincial plan in this
regard."

In the formal welfare sector, about 40% of welfare services are delivered by
private welfare organisations, whose programmes are subsidised by the
Government.  There are quite a number of NGOs and CBOs which developed
during the apartheid era and were funded by foreign donors.  These are going
to be a challenge in terms of government subsidies because they are playing an
extremely important role that can never be ignored.  As we move towards this
direction, the public and private welfare sectors will need to reorganise the 26
national councils and ensure that their administrations are lean and mean.

Chairperson, I would like to make focused comments in respect of programme
4, social welfare services.  There has been a 6% increase on this programme. 
After scrutinising the items under the programme, it becomes apparent that the
programme does not provide for redistribution of services.  The implications
being, previously disadvantaged areas will remain disadvantaged.  Another
operational comment we would like to make, is that the Department of Welfare
seems to carry some expense and responsibility which should be borne by the
private sector.  Provision of and maintenance of children's homes, as well as
care centres for the aged is the role of the private sector to which the
Government would only give a subsidy as per laid down guidelines for financing
of institutions and facilities.  State responsibility in actual fact should be places
of safety, secure care centres and rehabilitation centres for substance abuse.    Ȳ        ""
!
!&&  
These fall under the statutory functions.

There has been a decrease in the budget for the care of the offender.  This is
worrying, because there is an ever increasing number of the youth awaiting
trial.  This decrease militates against transformation of the youth justice
system.  This miscarriage of justice leads to an increase in the crime index. 
Keeping youth in prisons becomes another way of generating criminals.

Our comments on programme 5, social development, are:


  o F 
 1. X""
 That contrary to the Minister's opening statement, that this is a new
programme, in the 1997/1998 estimates, this programme was already
in the estimates."


  o F \

 2. X""
 The footnote in these estimates stated: "appropriated in estimate
expenditure for 1996/1997".  The truth of the matter is, that this is
one programme that has never seen the light of day.  We need to see
more dynamism in this programme, and hopefully with the Minister's
speech, something is going to come out of it."

Programme 6, population development, reflects an increase of 31%.  It is
disconcerting that we have not seen what this Department does.  When some
employees from this programme were given voluntary severance packages a
few years back, the understanding was that this Department was undergoing
right(c)sizing.  Short of saying the staff under this programme sit day in and day
out twiddling their thumbs, we need to be informed what the programme has
been doing to deserve such a hefty increase.  However, after the Minister has
outlined the plan of activities of the programme, we are anxiously looking
forward to see the implementation within this current year.

Chairperson, I must be very frank with you.  There are some transactions in the
Welfare programmes I cannot comprehend.  The aim of programme 7, auxiliary
and associated services, is to render auxiliary services associated with the
Department's aims.  The programme description indicates purchase of vehicles
for the Department's use, as well as for allocation under the subsidised motor
transport scheme.  Earlier on in our discussion we emphasised the critical
importance of transport for service delivery.  During the past financial year,   ȳ        ""
!
!&&  
namely 1998/1999 the same amount of R500 000 was budgeted, but not a
single vehicle was purchased and there is no evidence of a significant number
of subsidised cars that have been bought.  At least we have never been told
about this.  The Minister's response may help to clarify this point.

Chairperson, in conclusion, I would like to make the following remark.  There
should be a conscious shift from the preoccupation with the maintenance of
conventional programmes to a concentration on social development.  I think
this is a point that can never be over(c)emphasised.  My colleague here next to
me, the hon Mr Ngidi, stressed this point over and over again.  This should be
coupled with a strong bias towards strategic planning for implementation of
social welfare services that will bring about desired transformation.  We shall
no longer suffer to perpetuate dependency of our clientele on hand(c)outs as
opposed to assisting these social service recipients to be empowered to realise
their self(c)determination.


  o F  

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Three minutes left.


  o F 
 
MR F DLAMINI:
  We would like to commend the Department of Social Welfare
for the offices that have been established throughout the Province, although a
lot of them are still on the upper part of the Province.  But be that as it may,
we commend what the Department has done, because this is going to ensure
effective service delivery by social workers.

The problems highlighted by the hon Mrs Downs further indicate a need for a
multidisciplinary approach to problems.  A supportive Police Service and social
workers with a heart, and skills to deal with problems as they arise.

With these comments, I would like to support the Minister's budget.  I thank
you.


  o F ^
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F "
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr Dlamini.  Finally, I wish to call upon the
hon Prince Zulu, the Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions, to reply to the
debate.
   ȴ         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare):
  Mr Chairman, I want to thank
all my colleagues for the constructive manner in which they discussed my
budget speech.  All of them have in fact supported the budget.  I just want to
assure the members that my officials are present and have been instructed to
take notes of what the members have said so that we can go back and discuss
them.


  o F .
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 

 
PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare):
  I work with the people.  I can
say that both parties in fact have supported the budget speech.  

Mr Dlamini's comments are well noted as are Mr Ngidi's.  Mrs Mchunu, you
discussed with me what you said here.  I invited you to my office to discuss
with my senior support staff the implementation of the credit card unionism. 
I know what you are talking about.  I knew the late Reverend that was running
the scheme in Eshowe, under Bishop Biyase.  My doors are still open to you to
come and discuss this with my people that are going to implement it.

I am pleased that the National Minister is listening to the pleas from this
Province.  My Department supports these concerns and are replicating
development programmes.  I thank my colleague Mr Dlamini for his support of
my plea with regard to limited resources.  I am convinced that with the support
of my colleagues, we can make our limited resources go a long way.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION.


  o F 
 
PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare):
  I am glad to hear that today. 
In reply to Mr Dlamini's comments on problems with Home Affairs, I would like
to assure the House that my Department is continually engaged in meetings
and discussions with senior officials of Home Affairs at monthly meetings.  I
think that the damage is being done at grass(c)root level where officials are not
carrying out the instructions of the senior officials.  During our meetings with
the fraud squad, officials from the Department of Health and forensic experts,
Home Affairs are always present and we always make these appeals that   ȵ        ""
!
!&&  
people are experiencing difficulty in getting birth certificates which they need
when applying for their CFG grants.  But now that it has been mentioned in this
chamber, I will again take it up at the next monthly meeting.  I must thank Dr
Mkhize's Department for being present at every meeting that we have.  They
are always supportive.

With regards to the robberies, I think this needs a joint solution.  My
Department cannot do it alone.  It needs a joint solution.

Ms Xulu also spoke about AIDS, and that AIDS is increasing in this Province. 
Of course it is true.  We have the majority in this Province out of all the
provinces.  I always wonder when people say that we have the most AIDS
cases in this Province, is it just because we have the most people in our
Province? 

Colleagues, I want to assure you, as I have said, that my departmental staff are
present and have noted the constructive contributions that you have made and
these matters will be taken care of.  I thank you.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, hon Minister.  


  o F N
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  He is already going out to call the hon Speaker.


  o F 
 

 THE BUSINESS OF THE COMMITTEE SUSPENDED

  o F 
 |
 THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE RESUMED AT 19:47
ă


  o F |
 
THE SPEAKER:
  I would like to get a report from the hon the Chairperson. 
Thank you.


  o F "
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, the Committee of
Supply has met, but we have not concluded our work.  I request leave to sit on
the next sitting day of this House.
   ȶ         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Leave granted.  Thank you.  Hon Minister of Health.


  o F 
 
DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):
  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I crave your
indulgence.  I have a request to make.  I would like to, with your permission,
table the annual report of the Department of Health at this stage.  This is being
necessitated by the need to have it circulated to members of the Portfolio
Committee.


  o F 

 
THE SPEAKER:
  Request granted.  Members, this morning we dealt with the

  o F 

 motion by the hon member Mr B H Cele.  



I(c)motion esiyishiye kukhona isicelo esiqhamuka kwilunga elihloniphekileyo u(c)Mrs
Cronj) ukuba kubekhona ukugcwalisela noma i(c)amendment kwasukuma ilunga
elihloniphekileyo uMnumzane u(c)Burrows wathi lolodaba ngekesikwazi ukulixoxa
ngoba asiliboni phansi.

Ngakhoke sengibona laphambi kumalunga ahloniphekileyo kuyakhombisa ukuthi
sekubhalekile phansi.  Ngakhoke umangikubuka lokhu okubhaleke phansi
kukhombisa ngokusobala ukuthi kunoguquko olukhulu eliku(c)motion engingafisa
ngaleyondlela ukuba mhlawumbe ngizwe uvo kwiphathi, ngephathi ngaphambi

  o F 
 kokuba ngithathe isinqumo.  

Ngokwesigaba 104 (g).




  o F l
 
TRANSLATION:
  A motion we left when there was a request from Mrs Cronje
for an addition or an amendment.  The hon Mr Burrows rose to say that we
could not discuss this matter because it was not in writing.

Therefore, there is indication that it has been written down.  Therefore, when
I look at what is written, it is clear that there has been a drastic change in the
motion.  In that case, I wish to hear the opinions of each party before I take a
decision.  According to section 104(g).  T/E

Hon member, I will ask the National Party if they have got anything to say.  A
representative of the National Party.  I am trying to entertain this last
amendment in terms of Rule 104(g)


  o F -
 
MR V A VOLKER:
  Mr Speaker, we have been provided with a copy of the
proposed amendment which adds a third section to the resolution that this   ȷ        ""
!
!&&  
House resolves.  We are basically in support of the appointment of a
commission.  In terms of the normal procedure of submitting amendments to
motions, I am not so certain whether it complies with the normal Rules of the
House, where an amendment should not seek to extend the motion, and this
proposed amendment does extend the motion.  But we believe that if the
problem is to be solved, the problem that is addressed here, it is essential that
such a commission be appointed, not only for Pomeroy, but on a wider scale.

Therefore, on that basis, subject to the validity of the amendment in terms of
the Rules, we are prepared to support the contents thereof.


  o F 	
 
THE SPEAKER:
  The IFP, yes, comment.


  o F z

 
MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):
  Mr Speaker, the motion which was before the
House is a motion which the IFP would happily support. The amendments to
the motion was not debated in this House.  Secondly, the amendment is such
a radical amendment that it alters the very content of the motion.

The IFP would happily support the motion as originally introduced by the hon
Mr Cele.  We would also be prepared to consider during the course of this
session a motion which involved a commission of inquiry that actually went
wider than the amendment to the motion which is considered today, and we
would be happy to consider that and entertain that with the other parties.

Then finally, as regards this whole matter.  You know, there has always been
a fairly vague area in the Rules as regarding a differentiation between a motion
and a draft resolution.  Now it is true, Mr Speaker, that on occasions in this
House we have voted for motions, it is also true that on occasions we have
simply at the end of a debate, the person proposing the motion has then
withdrawn the motion, and it has been a subject for discussion.  Now clearly
we need some sort of clarity and decision on this, so that when a motion is put
on the Order Paper we know before it is on the Order Paper whether it is a
motion or whether it is intended to be a draft resolution.

The motion that was before us today, certainly there was no discussion prior
to the debate starting that we would actually vote on it.  It could be because
of what has happened in the past, that some members thought we would   ȸ        ""
!
!&&  
automatically vote on it, but there are some others of us who thought that it
would simply be withdrawn at the end of the debate.

Mr Speaker, I would ask three things of you.  The first thing is, that you should
put the motion as originally printed.  That is the first thing.  Secondly, is that
I think it would be a good idea if you were to agree to call a meeting between
yourself and the Whips in order that we could make an interim ruling until such
a time as it is included in the Rules.  What you can do is that when we put
motions to this House in future, there is some clarity as to whether this is a
motion which is a subject for discussion and will be withdrawn, or whether it
is a draft resolution which will be something which will then be voted upon. 
Then the third issue, is that the amendment to this motion which is before us
represents such a radical amendment to the motion, is that in fact it represents
almost a new motion altogether and that this amendment to this motion is not
properly before the House.

So I would request then, Mr Speaker, you rule the amendment out of order, and
you put the motion as it originally was.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Hon member Mrs Cronje.


  o F N
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Yes, Mr Speaker, I suppose one sometimes
has to say what one has to say.  Hon Mr Tarr has just done that.  He has not
convinced us and I doubt very much whether he has convinced himself.

First of all, on the actual amendment.  Mr Speaker, with respect, it has nothing
to do with Rule 104(g), it has everything to do with Rule 104(a).  Rule 104(a)
reads thus:
 
 X""
Every motion requires notice, except a motion (c) "
 X""
 by way of amendment to a draft resolution permitted in terms of these
Rules."

This is an amendment to a draft resolution.  May I quickly solve Mr Tarr's
problem on the issue of the draft resolution.  He seems to get very confused   ȹ        ""
!
!&&  
with his own mother tongue which is English.  A motion is simply a draft
resolution.  Once it is adopted it becomes a resolution.  It is no more, it is no
less.  So 104(a) says that every motion requires notice, except one by way of
an amendment.  This seeks to amend the earlier draft resolution or motion and
therefore does not require notice.

As far as this drastic departure from the motion is concerned, I am actually
quite surprised, because the entire motion dealt with the issue of Pomeroy and
in fact, if we look at the motion: 

 X""
 Believing that, the matter is of urgent public importance it cannot be
allowed to continue."

And then the House resolves, and there was already 1 and 2:


  o F >

  X""
 1. X

 to encourage the local SAPS management to continue their
efforts to normalise the situation; and



  o F 
  X""
 2. X

 that the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security should
play an active part in facilitating a speedy resolution to the
matter.


And then in fact, the idea of a commission came from the hon Mr Haygarth. 
In response to the hon Mr Haygarth we thought well yes, that sounds like a
good idea, let us then just take it to its logical conclusion.  There is no
departure.  It is no departure whatsoever, and to try and call it a radical
departure, one wonders what the hon Mr Tarr and his party are trying to run
away with, because all we are saying is let us just take this matter to its logical
conclusion, and let us just simply say yes, there is a serious situation,
everybody agrees that it is serious, how do we resolve it, speedily.  Let us get
something with teeth.  We get a commission of inquiry as proposed in
paragraph 3, and we take the matter further.

On the issue of voting, this is where the hon Mr Tarr really surprises me.  I have
here with me Hansard dated 3 and 4 October 1995, Volume 9.  Where in the
dark days of the Constitution, the hon Mr MacKenzie, and Mr MacKenzie, do
not take this as a personal matter, you just happened to have been the one   Ⱥ        ""
!
!&&  
who tried to get, I cannot remember if it was a green, or a blue, or a pink, or
a purple Ambrosini paper at the time.  He came with yet another paper, and the
IFP one morning wanted this pink, purple, green, yellow paper adopted by the
House as a resolution, and I think you were the chosen one at that moment to
put it to the House as a resolution.  From the ANC's side, and I want Mr Tarr
to listen very carefully, from the ANC's side we actually argued at the time.


  o F .
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION


  o F 

 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Mr Speaker, I want Mr Tarr to hear this
argument, but if he is not interested then he can wake up later.


  o F 

 
THE SPEAKER:
  You are addressing the House, not hon Mr Tarr.


  o F \

 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  From the ANC's side we argued at the time
that there was a convention in this House that we do not vote on motions. 
Then the hon Mr Tarr said:

 X""
 Mr Speaker, I wonder if you would allow me to address myself to both
the issues which have been discussed by Mr Burrows."

And that was the two(c)thirds.  But then he goes on, the first issue was simply
on whether we needed two(c)thirds.  That was not relevant.  He says:

 X""
 Now you will know in the early days of this House there was not a lot
of legislation.  In the early days of this House we were all on the
learning curve and we fitted in a lot of our time in the early debates in
this House debating motions."

And then he goes on to say:

 X""
 In the early days we did have a convention that we did not vote
because there were so many.  So we did have the convention, but I
submit it is a convention that has not been in operation very long.  It
is not a convention that is binding upon this House."

I am quoting Mr Tarr.   "         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
AN HON MEMBER:
  Verbatim.


  o F 
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  And then he says.  Yes, Mr Burrows made
the point that if we voted on that day then nobody must come crying if we
want to vote on other occasions when it might not be convenient to the
majority party.  And then Mr Tarr says:

 X""
 If that is the case then, Mr Speaker, so be it, but as far as voting on
this motion is concerned, the convention does not bind us in any way. 
We can vote on it and we also only need a simple majority."

And then the hon Premier who was Dr Mdlalose at the time says, referring to
the convention ...


  o F \

 
THE SPEAKER:
  Hon member, what are you trying to do?  You are trying to
waste this ...


  o F 
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Yes, I am trying to address Mr Tarr's issue
that we can vote on the issue.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F l
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  So Dr Mdlalose says in response to the
convention:

 X""
 So it is not the law of this House, and we are not going to be bound
by that."

And so on.  Now the point that I am making, Mr Speaker, is that Mr Tarr now
four years later tries to argue that we should not be voting.  I am arguing we
should be voting, because Mr Tarr and the hon Premier at the time said the
convention does not bind the House.  If we want to vote, we want to vote. 
Today is one of the cases where we want to vote, Mr Speaker.  Thank you.


  o F -
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):
  Mr Speaker, on a matter of clarity.  I never said   1/4         ""
!
!&&  
we could not vote on the motion.  I actually said we are prepared to vote on
the motion as originally on the Order Paper put by the ANC.  I said that.  



  o F 
 AN HON MEMBER:
  She is Afrikaans speaking, she does not understand.


  o F j
 
MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):
  Well, she obviously cannot change a prepared
speech, because she cannot think on her feet.  Then, Mr Speaker, I said that
we needed to clarify this matter once and for all, and I asked whether you
would call a meeting of yourself and the Whips so we could get some clarity
and an interim ruling on the difference between a motion and a draft resolution.

So, Mr Speaker, the reality is we said yes, we will vote on the motion, because
the precedent has been created.  We will vote on the motion as published.  But
then we argue that the amendment to the motion as published was of such a
nature that it substantially changed the motion.


  o F  

 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):
  And then I went on further in order to try and
accommodate that side of the House.  I said if that side of the House wish to
get together with the other parties in this House, we will agree on a motion
relating to violence and various things that goes much wider than this.  We will
talk about a motion that goes wider than this.  Now what is the problem with
that?  So we will pass this motion as it is, as printed.  We do not have a
problem.  I agree with Mrs Cronje.  We have not a clear convention established
in this House.  No problem, I agree with her.  We have done it in the past.

So I am simply saying, this amendment is not something we are trying to walk
away from, Mr Speaker, it is something which we believe should be wider than
it is.  I would still argue that we should withdraw this amendment because it
is not correctly before the House.  You should put the motion as it stands.  We
can then discuss the other matters ...


  o F "
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Hon member Mr Tarr, in fact I heard you when you spoke
about this earlier.  I was trying to entertain this amendment to the motion in
terms of Rule 104.  That is why I am allowing parties to comment.  PAC.
   1/2         ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
MR J D MKHWANAZI:
  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, the
PAC has no problem with the amendment, but what we would put as a rider
is that it is not to be written down, we accept it as it is.  Believing that the
national commission and the provincial commission will work as equals, not one
under the other.  If that is the case, because our point is that we would like this
problem to be solved as soon as possible, and as peacefully as possible in spite
of the fact that some of the members of the ANC are busy gesturing negative
insults at us.  But we being civilised, we would like to support this in a fair and
factual manner.  That is our position.  I thank you.


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  DP.


  o F 

 
MR W U NEL:
  Mr Speaker, we would have liked to see a motion like this
carried and implemented.  In fact we have called for it on previous occasions
and this House on a previous occasion accepted a similar kind of motion with
respect to Richmond, that is some two years ago.  But that motion was never
ever implemented, despite it being adopted.  

One wonders then whether we are really playing games here.  I would agree
with the hon Mr Tarr that the amendment that we introduce here is a
substantial amendment that changes the whole thrust of the motion, because
everybody in this House realises that we have not once, but on many occasions
had arguments about commissions, and whether the Province has jurisdiction,
or whether they do not have the jurisdiction.  Recently there was the
announcement of a national commission into violence in this Province, a very
wide brief in terms of reference, following immediately on the very specific one
which we criticised from our benches which was the one directed at a specific
individual and gazetted by the hon Premier.

So it is not a new matter in this House, but never ever have we managed to
implement anything of the kind.  So I say that this is in fact a substantially new
thing, and whilst we would like to support a motion like this, it is absolutely
futile if we are just going to be playing a game here and nothing is going to
come of it.  If we can have the assurance from parties that we are going to
actually co(c)operative to see something done, because we need to know the
truth behind Pomeroy as we should know the truth behind Bulwer and
Richmond and several other places in this Province.   3/4        ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
THE SPEAKER:
  I said that I would try to entertain the amendment in terms of
Rule 104(g).  There is no unanimity or concurrence from all the members.  As
a result the amendment is not in order.  

  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION.


  o F j
 
THE SPEAKER:
  In terms of Rule 104(g), there is no unanimous concurrence
from the members.


  o F 

 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  In that instance, I therefore rule that ...


  o F 

 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Point of order, Mr Speaker.


  o F \

 
THE SPEAKER:
  ... the amendment to the motion is out of order.  We will only
vote ...


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Order please!  We will only vote on the original motion as put
before this House.  Thank you.


  o F l
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Mr Speaker, I thought that I did point out
that the amendment is not in terms of Rule 104(g), which requires unanimous
concurrence.  The amendment is in terms of Rule 104(a) which says:

 X""
 Every motion requires notice, except a motion (c) "
 X""
 by way of amendment to a draft resolution ..."

And this is what this is, an amendment to a draft resolution.  So, Mr Speaker,
with the greatest of respect, I think your ruling is in terms of the wrong Rule.


  o F @
 
THE SPEAKER:
  I have made a ruling unfortunately, my sister.  So I will put
forward the original motion as tabled before this House.


   ȿ         ""
!
!&&  ԌMOTION:

 X""
 Noting that:"

 X""
 The deteriorating relationship between the SAPS and the community
of Pomeroy which resulted in threats by the community that they will
not allow the South African Police to work with them, and that they
will attack the Police if they should go there until, in their words, "the
last dead man is picked up"."

 X""
 Believing that:"

 X""
 the matter is of urgent public importance and cannot be allowed to
continue."

 X""
 This House Resolves:"


  o F 
  X""
 1. X

 to encourage the local SAPS management to continue their
efforts to normalise the situation;  and



  o F 
  X""
 2. X

 that the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security should
play an active part in facilitating a speedy resolution to the
matter.



  o F 0
 
THE MOTION AS INTRODUCED BY THE HON MEMBER MR B H CELE (c)
AGREED TO


  o F 
 

HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Order please!  Order!  Let us move on.  We have completed the
business of the day.  The House adjourns until 2 o'clock tomorrow.  Thank you.


  o F @
 q

 

HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 20:11 UNTIL

ă

  o F "
 


 

14:00 ON WEDNESDAY, 24 MARCH 1999

ă   "         ""
!
!&&  

  o F   
  @@ ""
 		

 

DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
ă

  o F  
 K

	 
KWAZULU(c)NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

ă


  o F 
 u

 
SIXTH

 SESSION
u

THIRD SITTING (c) SIXTH SITTING DAY
B	
 WEDNESDAY, 24 MARCH 1999

THE HOUSE MET AT 14:12 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER,
PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE

  o F 

 PRAYER.



  o F 	
 
THE SPEAKER:
  


  o F z

 2. X""
 OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS"


  o F >

 3. X""
 ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION"


  o F 
 4. X""
 ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER"

I would like to announce that I received a request from the hon member Mr A
J Konigkramer in terms of Rule 74(2) of the Rules of procedure of this House. 
I have granted that request.  That the member can use this time.


  o F N
 
MR A J KONIGKRAMER:
  Mr Speaker, I refer to an incident in the House
yesterday in which the hon Mr Rajbansi, when I was out of the House, accused
me of being responsible in terms of a front page report in today's Natal
Witness, for the breakup of his family.  Mr Speaker, thank you for granting me
the opportunity to reply, and I wish to reply as follows:

First of all, that is a blatant untruth.  I have nothing whatever to do with Mr
Rajbansi's family.  His marital problems are of no concern to me or the IFP.  But
what I wish to say is simply this.  That at the time of the death of our late
colleague Mr Haripersaad, I was also not in the Province, and a certain Mr
Juglall, who was the former right hand man of Mr Rajbansi was requested by
his wife to take Mrs Rajbansi to the funeral, which he duly did.  After the
funeral Mr Juglall and others received a string of threats over the telephone and
the hon Mr Rajbansi threatened to murder Mr Juglall.  They came to us for help           ""
!
!&&  
as party members, and I sought advice from the party leadership, and I was
given authority as Treasurer(c)General of the IFP to authorise the expenditure of
funds to defend Messrs Juglall and others against the harassment and the
death threats by Mr Rajbansi.

Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity.  Again, I reject with contempt the
statement he made in the House yesterday, and I think it reflects what one hon
member said yesterday, what the late Justice James said about that hon
member.  His behaviour yesterday again demonstrates ...


  o F 
 
ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  
Mr Speaker, on a point of order.


  o F 

 
THE SPEAKER:
  Yes, hon member Adv Schutte.


  o F \

 


ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  
Mr Speaker, on a point of order, I would like to raise
that in the absence of the member that has been implicated, but is it
parliamentary for a member to implicate another hon member of this House, to
say that he made death threats?


  o F 
 
MR A J KONIGKRAMER:
  Mr Speaker, can I respond?  I have made the
statement that those death threats were reported to the South African Police
and they were traced to the hon member's home.  I am not saying whether he
did that or did not do that.  All I said was that members of the IFP came to the
party for help and I as Treasurer(c)General authorised the expenditure of funds
to have that matter investigated.  That is all I said.


  o F 
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Point of order, Mr Speaker.


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Yes, hon member Mrs Cronje.


  o F |
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Mr Speaker, I think the Rule is quite clear. 
It says:

 X""
 (Rule 74)"
 X""
 A member may, with the prior consent of the presiding officer, ..."

And that has been complied with, we have got no problem with that             ""
!
!&&Ԍ(tm) X""
 ... also explain matters of a personal nature, but such matters may not
be debated, and the member shall confine ..."

And this is really the part where I think we are now in breach of our own Rules

 X""
 ... the member shall confine himself or herself strictly to the
vindication of his or her own conduct and may not speak for longer
than three minutes."

The hon Mr Konigkramer is going beyond the scope of the Rule and what was
intended, and I think in that respect my colleague Adv Schutte is quite correct
as well.  The response to Adv Schutte in fact again breaches the Rule.


  o F z

 
THE SPEAKER:
  Unfortunately the time is up for the member.  So the three
minutes has lapsed.  We will then move on.


  o F  

 5. X""
 ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORTS BY THE PREMIER"


  o F 
 
THE PREMIER:
  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to report two matters to
this House.  The first matter concerns the loss of lives which occurred in an
accident involving a taxi and a bus in Richards Bay.  On behalf of this House,
we convey our sympathy and condolences to the next(c)of(c)kin of those who lost
their lives.

The second matter which has been reported to me is the re(c)emergence of
political violence in Lindelani in KwaDukuza.  This House expresses its disquiet
on that matter.  Thank you.


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Thank you, hon Premier.


  o F |
 6. X""
 TABLING OF REPORTS AND/OR PAPERS"

Hon Minister Zuma.


  o F -
 
MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):
  Thank you, Mr
Speaker.  I would like to table two reports.  The annual report of the
Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism, as well as the annual report of           ""
!
!&&  
the Natal Sharks Board.  Thank you. 


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Hon member Mr Volker.


  o F 
 
MR V A VOLKER:
  Mr Speaker, the preliminaries having been complied with, I
would like to table the report of the Auditor(c)General on the financial statements
of vote 10, the Provincial Service Commission of the Provincial Administration
of KwaZulu(c)Natal for 1996 and 1997.


  o F 

 
THE SPEAKER:
  Then let us move on.


  o F 	
 7. X""
 NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS "

Hon member Inkosi Mathaba.


  o F >

 
INKOSI K W MATHABA:
  Mr Speaker, sir, I give notice that I will move on the
next sitting day of the House:

 X""
That the re(c)emergence of political violence at Lindelani in KwaDukuza
is a cause for serious concern in the run(c)up to the 1999 election.  We
deplore political violence which threatens peaceful election
campaigning and places at risk free and fair elections in this Province."

 X""
 This House calls upon Minister Rev C J Mtetwa and Minister J G Zuma
to act expeditiously to activate the ten(c)a(c)side peace initiative, and to
mediate in the violence-torn Lindelani in KwaDukuza."

I thank you.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F ^
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Hon member.


  o F "
 
MR M A I KUBHEKA:
  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to give notice that
on the sitting day of this House I will move as follows:

            ""
!
!&&  Ԍ X""
 that this House notes with concern the irresponsible statement made
by the hon Minister of Social Welfare, Prince G L Zulu at an IFP
election rally during the Human Rights weekend in condoning the
activities of the disruption of the Nongoma meeting of Minister Jeff
Radebe of Public Works and His Majesty the King, by IFP supporters."

""
 Further noting:


  o F 

  X""
(c) X

 that the incident of disruption of the said Nongoma meeting
by IFP supporters is deplorable, and 



  o F 	
  X""
(c) X

 that such incidents only help to increase tensions and ferment
violence.


 X""
 Believing that:"


  o F  

  X""
(c) X

 political tolerance and free political activity is the key to
democracy and peace in this Province; and



  o F 
  X""
(c) X

 all leaders should act responsibly and encourage political
tolerance amongst members and supporters.


 X""
 Therefore this House resolves:"


  o F 0
  X""
(c) X

 that the IFP in particular and this House in general distances
itself from and condemn the irresponsible utterances of the
hon Minister; and



  o F 
  X""
(c) X

 that the hon Minister publicly withdraws his praise for such
action which only serves to confirm the IFP's intention to
maintain no(c)go areas in the run(c)up to the June 2 elections.


I thank you.


  o F -
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Order!  Order please!  Hon member Mr Chief Whip.            ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):
  Mr Speaker, I would like to raise a point of order
on two issues.  The first is one that was raised earlier in this session, and I
wonder whether you would consider going ahead with the matter, and that
relates to motions.  Members are still making use of motions to make a speech
they would have made if the motion was moved, and I really believe this matter
needs to be addressed.  Mr Speaker, I am asking that you will convene a
meeting of the Whips in this House in order that that can be done.

Then secondly, on a far more serious matter which could be dealt with at the
same meeting.  At the conclusion of our sitting last night, there were remarks
made in this House, Mr Speaker, which clearly reflected upon yourself and the
ruling which you had given.  This is an extremely serious matter.  It is like
reflecting upon a ruling of a Judge in the Supreme Court.


  o F \

 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F  

 
MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):
  I do not believe that this is the time and the
occasion to raise it, but I would believe that this is a matter which should be
dealt with in a meeting between yourself and the Whips.  We may be able to
resolve it amicably there.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F N
 
THE SPEAKER:
  I will take notice of that, hon Chief Whip.  Hon Minister of
Health.


  o F 
 


DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):
  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I wish to give
notice that I shall move on the next sitting day as follows:

 X""
 Noting that:"


  o F ^
  X""
 (a) X

 up to about 30 000 people per year in this Province are
referred to our institutions for tuberculosis treatment;

 X""
  X

 


  o F -
  X""
 (b) X

 that about 50% of adult patients in King George V Hospital
who are admitted with tuberculosis are HIV positive;

            ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
  X""
 (c) X

 that about 40% of patients in the children's ward in King
George V Hospital are also HIV positive;



  o F 
  X""
 (d) X

 that the Directly Observed Therapy (DOT) strategy has been
adopted to increase the cure rate of tuberculosis in the
community; and



  o F .
  X""
 (e) X

 that today is International Tuberculosis Day wherein
institutions in this Province are conducting health education
programmes to increase the awareness about tuberculosis.


 X""
 Therefore this House resolves:"


  o F z

  X""
(c) X

 to note the seriousness of tuberculosis and the devastating
effect of the combination of HIV and TB together on our
community;



  o F 
  X""
(c) X

 to commit its members to support programmes by the
Department of Health aimed at reducing the spread of
tuberculosis.


Thank you.


  o F N
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Hon member Mr Cele.


  o F 
 
MR B H CELE:
  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I wish to give notice that on the next
sitting day I will move the motion:
 X""
 "
 X""
 That this House:"

 X""
 Noting:"


  o F @
  X""
 1. X

 The sentencing yesterday of Nicholas Steyn to a suspended
sentence for the killing of six month old Angelina Zwane; 
and



  o F 
  X""
 2. X

 the shock and outrage expressed by the Zwane family and            ""
!
!&&  
the community at large at the lenient sentence given.


 X""
 Believing:"


  o F 
  X""
 1. X

 that the manner in which this case and other cases of a
similar nature have been handled causes African people in
particular to lose faith in the ability of the criminal justice
system to bring justice; and



  o F 

  X""
 2. X

 that this can lead to people taking the law into their own
hands, especially on farms.


 X""
 Calls on the Minister of Justice to take urgent steps to continue the
transformation of the judiciary and prosecuting authority."

Thank you.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Any other motions?  Thank you.  Hon Minister of Transport.


  o F 
 
MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):
  Mr Speaker, this is a motion I am
moving with great regret.

 X""
 that this House noting that this country is emerging from a society
based on racism and tribalism;"

 X""
 that as one of its founding principles this country has committed itself
to heal the divisions of the past and establish a society based on
democratic values;"

 X""
 that the freedom of expression (Section 16.2 of the Constitution)
exclude advocacy of hatred that is based on race, ethnicity, gender or
religion;"

 X""
 that the editorial of the IFP owned newspaper Ilanga, is the most racist
and scurrilous attack on the Indian Community;"           ""
!
!&&Ԍ(tm) X""
 that the editorial accuses the Indian Community of being behind the
violence in KwaZulu(c)Natal;"


  o F 
 
MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):
  Point of order, Mr Speaker.


  o F j
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Hon member.  Order, hon Minister.


  o F .
 
MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):
  Mr Speaker, the hon Chief Whip only a few
minutes ago referred to members using motions to make speeches, and I
believe that is exactly what the hon Minister is doing now and it is not in terms
of motions in this House.


  o F 

 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Point of order, Mr Speaker.


  o F \

 




THE SPEAKER:
  I do not see any point in members debating the point of order. 
Nobody is allowed to debate the point of order.  Thank you.  Hon member Mrs
Cronje.


  o F 
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Mr Speaker, my point of order is that
members cannot jump up and take a point of order each time ...


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  This is not a debate, Mrs Cronje.  You cannot debate the point
of order.


  o F 0
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  I am not debating a point of order, Mr
Speaker.  I am taking a point of order against members jumping up to interrupt
members on this side of the House each time there is a motion that is politically
uncomfortable for them.  That is my point of order, and I ask that you should
Rule that they should not interrupt members unnecessarily.  Thank you, Mr
Speaker.


  o F ^
 




THE SPEAKER:
  There has been a request before this House, which I have said
that I will consider, that during a meeting between all the Whips we will discuss
this issue of motions.  Members are requested to put motions and not to debate
motions.  Thank you.  Hon Minister.


  o F 
 


MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):
  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Can I            ""
!
!&&  
conclude my notice of motion:

 X""
 that this paper implores some African mother to urgently give birth to
an Idi Amin who must deal with the Indians once and for all;"

 X""
 that the Human Rights Commission and the Public Protector must
urgently investigate this matter; and"

 X""
 calls on the IFP to distance itself from this racist editorial of Ilanga
against the Indian Community."

I thank you.  It is a motion that I move with the greatest regret that things like
this still happen in our Province.


  o F \

 
THE SPEAKER:
  Any other motions?


  o F  

 
MR V A VOLKER:
  Mr Speaker, just on a point of order.  I think members
should realise that the item on the Order Paper is notices of motion, it is not
moving motions.  So what the hon Minister did, he gave notice of a motion, but
he said he is moving a motion.  Obviously it is not moving a motion, it is giving
notice of a motion which can be moved at a later date.


  o F l
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 0
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Thank you, hon member, for explaining it in such a way. 
Thank you.  Let us move on.


  o F 
 8. X""
 ORDERS OF THE DAY"


INTERPELLATIONS, QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS WILL BE PUBLISHED IN A

  o F |
 LATER VOLUME.





  o F @
 
THE SPEAKER:
  I would therefore propose that the House goes into Committee
Stage.  I will now leave the Chair and ask the Sergeant at Arms to lift the
Mace.  Thank you.


            ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 THE HOUSE RESOLVED INTO A COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE


  o F  
 
MR T S MOHLOMI TAKES THE CHAIR



KWAZULU(c)NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL, 1999/2000



  o F j
 
VOTE 4 : DEPARTMENT OF ECONOMIC AFFAIRS & TOURISM.



  o F .
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Order please!  The Committee of Supply resumes.  We
are now going to debate vote 4, that is Economic Affairs and Tourism, and I
wish to call upon the hon Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism, Mr Zuma,
to address the House.


  o F 

 
MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):
  Chairperson, hon
members, it gives me great pleasure to present to you today the Department
of Economic Affairs and Tourism vote for 1999/2000.  We have travelled a
long way in a short four and a half years as a new democratic government
committed to raising the quality of life of our people.  Our work in Economic
Affairs and Tourism over this period has been a mixed bag of experiences.  We
have made tremendous progress in some areas, in others our success has been
moderate to say the least.

Our transition to democracy has proved to be complex and challenging.  Our
first priority has been institutional reform.  This has been largely achieved
through the merging of different organs of the provincial government
administrations.  In addition, we have also established new institutions such as
the Tourism Authority and the restructuring of existing institutions, such as the
KwaZulu Finance Corporation, the KwaZulu(c)Natal Economic Forum to bring
them in line with our new Constitution.  While in the process of institutional
form we simultaneously attempted to develop economic strategies, policies,
new priorities and delivery programmes to reflect the nature of our new
democratic government.  I must say this has been a remarkable achievement
in our Province and congratulations must go to each one of you who have
played a part in this process.

However, the central challenges remain - we need more jobs, more service
delivery, more infrastructure and more direct investment.  We need higher
economic growth to create the wealth necessary to improve the quality of life           ""
!
!&&  
of our people.  We need to invest R20 billion every year for the next 20 years
to wipe out provincial infrastructural backlogs and realise our provincial vision
in 2020.  This figure rises every year and is the cold harsh reality.  In the next
term of office, the new provincial government will need to take tough decisions
to increase the Province's capital budget, finding ways in which the recurrent
budget items can be reduced and more systematically use the provincial budget
as an instrument for economic growth and development.

This will require a fundamentally different approach to the budgeting process. 
A process which is more inclusive of civil society, in particular the business and
the parastatal sector.  This will allow for more systematic co-ordination with
the economic players over budget priorities and allow provincial government the
opportunity to leverage our meagre capital budget through a range of public
private sector partnerships.  I would like to turn my attention to some of the
mega project initiatives in the Province.

Chairperson, over the last six months we have made tremendous progress on
the relocation of the current Durban Airport to La Mercy.  The Airport Steering
Committee has approved the relocation package supported by the Airports
Company of South Africa (ACSA).  ACSA is committed to contribute
approximately R550 million towards the relocation process.  Provincial
Government and National Government has reached agreement on the relocation
subject to the Province and Durban Metro raising the outstanding amount that
is required for the relocation estimated to be R1,1 billion.  A small task team
has been established under the MEC for Finance, the hon Minister P M Miller
to look at how these funds could be raised.  Good progress has been made and
we expect to finalise this issue within the course of this year.  We should
expect that the funding mechanism to finance the new King Shaka Airport will
be a mixture of government, private sector and donor funding through a public
private partnership agreement.

The building of the new King Shaka Airport is critical to unlocking the Durban
Spatial Development Initiative (SPI) and key to unleashing economic growth and
development in the Province.  Given that all political parties in the Province and
National Government have achieved consensus on this we must be able to
rapidly move towards implementation.  In order to achieve this National
Government through ACSA must be able to increase its risk in the project.  In           ""
!
!&&  
fact, I would argue that ACSA should take 95% of the risk with the Province
and Metro contributing to the outstanding amount.  I would therefore like to call
on National Government and ACSA to re(c)examine their financial contributions
and significantly increase their stakes in the airport project.

I also want to reassure you that the recent pulling out of British Airways (BA)
and South African Airways (SAA) direct international flights from Durban poses
no real danger to the relocation process.  This has been part of their own
rationalisation process and partly due to the short runway Durban International
offers the major airline carriers.  If anything, these recent events points to the
real need to get the relocation process off the ground as soon as possible.  I am
confident that with the construction and operationalisation of the new King
Shaka Airport the major airline carriers will return in their numbers.

I would also like to express my disappointment at the lack of delivery on the
Point Waterfront in Durban.  A project that is more than four and a half years
old and with an expected investment of more than R4 billion has failed to
materialise.  This is certainly one instance where the private sector has dismally
failed to deliver.  This will seriously jeopardise our sustained growth in tourism
and not create the jobs we so desperately require.  The time has arrived for
government in particular the Durban Metro to intervene decisively to get this
project off the ground once again.  I am engaging with the leadership of the
Durban Metro to find solutions to the obstacles and put this project back on
track.  We cannot hope to compete with other coastal destinations without a
massive investment in our beach front.  The Point Waterfront project therefore
must be our immediate priority.  We must develop innovative solutions to get
this project off the ground.

I want to turn to address briefly the issue of the development of our ports. 
Little can be achieved without the reconstructing of Portnet.  Through my
interactions with National Government I believe substantial progress has been
made in the reconstructing process.  It is unlikely though that these changes
will go through the current session of National Parliament.  In the next term,
however, we are likely to see a separation of Portnet's function into separate

  o F -
 regulatory and development authorities.  

 The development authority will be
primarily concerned with investment opportunities in the ports with regard to
facilities and infrastructure.  This restructuring will have some direct           ""
!
!&&  
implications, firstly, our ports within the country will start competing with each
other for investment.  Secondly, the private sector will be decisive in
determining where things will happen.

We need to come to terms with this new reality as a matter of urgency and
develop a framework that allows the private sector to maximise the
opportunities presented at both Durban and Richards Bay ports.  Both ports
have tremendous potential for further development and hence industrial
investment.  As Provincial Government we should be careful not to support one
port over the other and ensure that there is a spread of investments across the
Province.  I appeal therefore to my colleagues and the hon members to be
circumspect in their approach to these issues.

The global economy has been shaken in the past 18 months by one financial
crisis after another.  Fast growing economies now face recession, increased
unemployment and social deprivation.  Globalisation has brought increased
uncertainty and the world appears to be ill(c)prepared to deal with the risks and
share the opportunities equitably.  In the countries worst affected there have
been severe cuts in social spending, reversal of foreign direct inflows,
businesses have collapsed pushing unemployment to soaring heights.  South
Africa has been fortunate.  We have survived the global crisis more or less
intact.  Our foreign direct investment as a country has been gaining momentum
starting at R4,7 billion in 1994 and rising to just over R7 billion in 1998.

At a provincial level more than R9 billion in fixed investment has already been
made over the last two years.  R7,7 billion is underway in mainly the upgrading
of existing firms as they restructure and gear up for global competition. 
Another R13 billion is currently being planned.  What this reveals is that
domestic capital has high levels of confidence in this Province.  We need to
build on this and use it as a platform to encourage further investment in
downstream production.

On a more optimistic note, my Department is currently involved in an economic
project scan of the Province.  What is emerging is certainly interesting.  Despite
the global volatility and the domestic downturn in our economy the private
sector in the Province is alive and vibrant.  There are numerous small
businesses looking for joint venture partners - a lot of them operational already.            ""
!
!&&  
Many NGOs and TLCs have potential projects for reticulation of water,
sanitation and energy waiting for funding.  The private sector also has a
number of innovative business concepts in the process of being developed. 
What is clear is that our people are resilient and the micro economy is dynamic
and responding positively to the adjustments in our national economy.  The
morale of our entrepreneurs across the Province is high.  We need to
encourage, assist and form partnerships with civil society so that apathy does
not find a place to fester.

We hope that once this exercise is completed we will separate and screen
projects in terms of various criteria.  We will then put forward those industrial
projects requiring investment into the national industrial participation
programme that will benefit from the counter trade deal currently being
negotiated.  We need to ensure as a Province that from the estimated R50
billion in counter trade, KwaZulu(c)Natal is organised enough to attract the bulk
of this investment into industrial projects.  Those projects of an infrastructural
nature will be referred to the relevant parastatals and line departments for
consideration.  Others will require further packaging and marketing through our
Local Economic Development Programme in the Department.  Over the next
couple of years, a new government will be wise to concentrate its efforts to
harness and support this energy and drive from the private sector in the
Province which appears to be boundless.

Mr Chairperson, hon members, I want to turn to address the Lubombo Spatial
Development Initiative (SDI).  We are making steady progress even though this
is a trilateral initiative involving three governments and three levels of
government within South Africa.  The financial feasibilities of each of the 10
investment sites identified in the Maputaland region are close to completion. 
The regulatory framework by way of the Malaria and Marine Protocols with
Mozambique and Swaziland are close to being ready to be signed off.  The
application for St Lucia to be a World Heritage site has been submitted.  The
World Heritage Council has already completed its initial appraisal of St Lucia. 
It is also unlikely that the legislation required to set up an Authority for the
Greater St Lucia Wetland Park will be achieved in this sitting of the National
Parliament.  The documentation necessary to undertake the investment process
with the private sector is close to finalisation.  Over the next two months the
focus will be on consolidation of the investment sites from the various           ""
!
!&&  
departments and addressing the planning approvals required before tenders are
put out to the public sector.  We are running about six months behind schedule
while we attempt to put into place all of the requirements necessary to
undertake the investment process.  This has proved to be more complex than
initially thought.

At the heart of the Lubombo SDI is the issue of conservation versus
development debate.  Given our population pressures, our inherited apartheid
legacy with its attendant socio(c)economic pressures can we really afford to
continue having conservation as a single use in areas of enormous investment
potential?  Has the time not arrived to develop frameworks through which we
can turn our conversation areas into multi(c)land use areas accommodating
activities that are able to generate jobs and local benefits for communities? 
The St Lucia area has been given eight years to realise its tourism potential by
the National Cabinet.  We are fast running out of time.  The new Government
will have to move rapidly to take forward the investment process of the
Lubombo SDI and ensure that tourism is able to deliver jobs and socio(c)economic
benefits for surrounding communities.  There is no doubt in my mind that
unless there is massive investment at scale in tourism projects, there is little
chance of tourism delivering in the Maputaland region.  The time has arrived for
bold decision(c)making and innovative methods of delivery to unlock this jewel
box in the northern part of our Province.

KwaZulu(c)Natal's economy has the potential, the asset base, a vibrant private
sector; we have the necessary ingredients for rapid economic growth.  In short,
we are ripe for massive growth, however what continually plagues us and
erodes confidence is political violence and stability.  No amount of marketing
funds or international trade and investment missions is going to correct the
image we already created for ourselves (c) as being a Province characterised by
violence and instability.  We as Government, as the elected leadership and all
political parties have the responsibility to find ways to bring this to an end once
and for all - if we do not, the future prospects for the Province will indeed be
too ghastly to contemplate.

I would now like to turn to address the activities that fall under my Department. 
I would also like to urge members to read the Department's Annual report for
more detailed information.  I am not going to go into all the details, because I           ""
!
!&&  
think the members would like to debate this exciting portfolio.  I will therefore
give them more opportunity to do so.


  o F 
 
KWAZULU(c)NATAL FINANCE AND INVESTMENT CORPORATION LIMITED (KFC)


Mr Chairperson, hon members, good progress was made in the transformation
process of the KFC to the Ithala Development Finance Corporation.  The new
Board has been appointed and they will have to focus on its full
implementation.

I am particularly pleased to inform you that the KFC has experienced a record
year.  Capital expenditure is estimated to reach R397 million, savings
depositors in Ithala will rise to close on 890 000 clients, with deposits being
at R570 million, reflecting a nett growth of 30%.

I also regret having to inform you that the share capital allocation to Ithala for
the 1999/2000 financial year remains the same as last year, R34 million, being
49% down on the 1997/1998 share capital allocation.  This has once again
been due to provincial budgetary constraints and as a consequence, the share
capital received by Ithala, as a percentage of capital investment will remain at
a very low 8%.


  o F l
 
SHARKS BOARD


In the new financial year, the Board is going to have to concentrate on finding
alternative sources of income.  To this end, it has already negotiated with a
private company to monitor and dive on effluent pipelines in the Indian Ocean.

The Board's status as an international centre for shark research continues to
be recognised throughout the world.  We hope that in the future local
government will also play an increasing role and will take more responsibility
for the services provided by the Board.


  o F "
 
KWAZULU TRANSPORT SERVICES


This year KZT will take delivery of 124 new buses for the awarded contracts
and refurbish at least 120 existing vehicles to latest specifications.  It should           ""
!
!&&  
be noted that this is the first time in nine years that KZT will receive new buses
and similarly with respect to the revenue collection equipment.

I expect the rapid reorganisation of the group to be completed by July this year
after which we hope to start preparations to undertake a full privatisation
process of the KwaZulu Transport Services.

I now turn to the activities of the KwaZulu(c)Natal Tourism authority.


  o F 

 
KWAZULU(c)NATAL MARKETING INITIATIVE


During 1998, the KMI, in executing its strategic marketing plan, has secured
a total of R174 million of investment against a target of R160 million.  The vast
majority of these are medium sized enterprises who created an estimated 1 750
new employment opportunities in the Province.

The investment programme involved 29 companies and the occupation of
77 213 square metres of factory space.

The majority of these companies came from three locations  namely: Gauteng
(10), Taiwan (9) and China (5) and covered 10 different manufacturing subsectors.

These results are quite remarkable given the fact that KMI had to re(c)establish
some of its promotional programmes after having had to cut back fairly
drastically during the previous financial year, due to financial constraints,
experienced by the Provincial Government resulting in a zero contribution for
that year.

An amount of R1,6 million is allocated to the KMI for the new financial year in
order to ensure that the KwaZulu(c)Natal Province continues to attract
investment and grow our economy.


  o F "
 
KWAZULU(c)NATAL TOURISM AUTHORITY


The first few years of the Provincial Government's efforts at promoting and
marketing our wonderful Province of KwaZulu(c)Natal have not been easy ones.            ""
!
!&&  
This time last year, I had the very difficult task of announcing to the people of
KwaZulu(c)Natal that the Provincial Government had slashed spending on tourism
by 55% to only R4 million.  Under these circumstances, I indicated that it was
not possible to appoint the Board of KwaZulu(c)Natal Tourism Authority.

A full year has passed now and on the financial side, thanks to a conditional
grant of R4,37 million received from the Treasury, I am very pleased to
announce that the budget of the KwaZulu(c)Natal Tourism Authority has been
increased by over 300% to R12,37 million.  This at least will go somewhere to
providing the resources required to begin to position the Province more
effectively in the global and domestic markets.

I should indicate however, that this amount is far from what is required to
meeting the huge challenges we face in the international market.  For example,
we are competing with countries that have tourism marketing budgets that far
exceed ours.  The tourism marketing budget for the State of Western Australia
was a massive R280 million.  They are competing for the same international
tourism markets as our Province.

I trust that with the increased budget, the tourism authority will be able to take
greater strides to making our Province the premier tourist destination in Africa.


  o F l
 
KWAZULU(c)NATAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL


The main object of the KZNEC is to develop strategies and formulate policies,
which will advance the economic development potential of the KwaZulu(c)Natal
Province, to the benefit of all the inhabitants of the Province, and in an
environmentally sustainable manner.

The KZN Regional Economic Forum was allocated an annual grant of R1,2
million for the last four years.  During this time the mandate and activities of
the KZNREF have broadened, and hence operational costs have increased
without corresponding increases in allocations from the Department.  The
KZNREF has managed to contain its costs within the allocation solely due to its
failure to employ its full staff complement.

The Board of Directors of the KZN Economic Council has begun the process of            ""
!
!&&  
developing a strategic work plan for the new Economic Council.  At this stage
it has been agreed that the KZNEC will need to continue with selected
programmes and projects which were being managed, facilitated and/or funded
by the KZN Regional Economic Forum in 1998.  Therefore some of the projects
briefly described in the Annexure A to the budget are a continuation or
extension of exiting projects.

The brief descriptions of the projects for 1999/2000 are set out in Annexure
A.  This will facilitate an understanding of the Council's budget for the coming
financial year, and reflect the partnership based approach to projects.  


  o F 	
 
RDP CHIEF DIRECTORATE


Mr Chairperson, our short-term approach consists of a number of community
projects.  Many of these projects have been funded through the RDP
Discretionary Fund.  Simultaneously, we have continued with our work around
the implementation of the Provincial Growth and Development Strategy in an
attempt to realise our provincial vision by 2020.

R14 million from the RDP Discretionary Fund was committed to 53 community
projects and it is anticipated that these will be completed by the end of this
financial year, 1998/1999.  This is set out in Annexure B.  The RDP Chief
Directorate has learnt lessons and sustained a wealth of experience in ensuring
that skills are transferred to the communities through hands(c)on supervision and
involvement during project implementation.  This has also resulted in many
community members receiving accredited training.

Through evaluation, lessons that have been learnt from project implementation
will be documented, recommendations made and disseminated to other
stakeholders that are involved in poverty alleviation strategies.  This is aimed
at assisting other institutions involved in development projects to avoid making
the same mistakes in development or re-inventing the wheel.  Evaluation
processes have provided a useful tool for policy feedback and further refine
policy frameworks.

The Directorate has been assigned the responsibility of facilitating the
implementation of the strategy.  In executing this responsibility, the Department           ""
!
!&&  
provides programme management and secretariat services to the PGDS Task
Team.  In addition, the Department is responsible for communicating the
Provincial Growth and Development Strategy to all stakeholders in the Province.

The implementation of the PGDS has led to the consolidation of 18 working
groups which span across provincial departments.  These working groups are
formed along the lines of critical elements identified in the PGDS, and critical
elements are in essence what the Province needs to focus on in order to
develop integrated programmes.  This effort has improved co-ordination in
policy initiatives, programmes and sharing of learning experiences with regard
to implementation.  There is still a long way to go in the process and the focus
in the next financial year will be on assisting the initiation of integrated
development programmes.


  o F \

 

However, the key challenges still remain.  We need to develop a Medium Term
Expenditure Framework that embraces the PGDS and provides an expenditure
framework that supports integrated and programmatic approach to
development.  This still remains the central instrument through which the PGDS
will be delivered.


  o F 
 
CHIEF DIRECTORATE : TOURISM, TRADE AND INDUSTRY


  o F l
 TOURISM DIRECTORATE


A budget of R1 million in 1999/2000 financial year is allocated to this
programme to undertake tourism awareness campaigns, capacity building,
product identification, establish appropriate institutional structures for tourism
development such as Trusts and Section 21 companies.

During this financial year, more than 15 such projects will be co-ordinated and
facilitated by this directorate throughout all seven Regional Council areas and
Durban Metro.  In addition the directorate will play a supportive role to the
KwaZulu(c)Natal Tourism Authority and also be responsible for developing policy
and legislation, macro co-ordination of government at various levels and
promoting community based tourism initiatives and campaigns.


            ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 DIRECTORATE : TRADE AND INDUSTRY SERVICES


The Trade and Industry Directorate is responsible for promoting the
development of trade, commercial activity and industrial development in the
Province.  The activities of the Department will be focused on promoting
exports, supporting initiatives directed at improving the international
competitiveness of local manufacture, stimulating the development of SMMEs,
promoting a healthy commercial environment in the Province, and stimulating
technological innovation and skills development.

The Department works closely with such bodies as the KwaZulu(c)Natal
Economic Council (KZNEC), the KwaZulu(c)Natal Marketing Initiative (KMI) and
Ithala Development Finance Corporation.


  o F \

 
SMALL, MEDIUM AND MICRO ENTERPRISES (SMME) DESK


The SMME Desk handles around 300 inquiries per month on issues such as
access to finance, access to tenders, business planning, registration
requirements et cetera.  In order to fulfil the mission and undertake the various
programmes, the Desk places a lot of importance in utilising the capacity of
other institutions and service providers involved in the sector.  


  o F l
 
FACILITATING THE ESTABLISHMENT OF LOCAL BUSINESS SERVICE CENTRES


These centres provide a wide range of services to emerging entrepreneurs,
including business advice and counselling, business planning and training.  The
Thekwini Business Development Centre (TBDC) alone handles about 600
enquiries per month.  From July 1997 to July 1998 this centre facilitated
business linkages to the value of R7,5 million, creating 600 jobs.  The value of
tenders facilitated by the TBDC over the past year reached R15 million.


  o F ^
 
THE KZN BUSINESS REHABILITATION TRUST FUND


The Rehabilitation Trust Fund Act was passed by the Legislature last December. 
We are now finalising the regulations which we hope to complete in a few
weeks time.  The delay has been beyond our control.  For the Fund to operate
smoothly we needed to ensure that all the parties involved are properly           ""
!
!&&  
consulted and their respective roles properly defined.  The advertisement calling
for nominations for the Board members to serve and administer this Fund have
been widely published.  We are presently processing the nominations and these
will be made public as soon as the regulations have been approved.  The main
delay in finalising the regulations has been caused by concerns raised by Khula
Enterprise Finance with certain elements of the scheme.  We are now exploring
other options for housing the scheme.  These negotiations are still at a delicate
stage but I am convinced that they will be able to launch the Fund by the end
of April.


  o F 
 
CONSUMER AFFAIRS


In this financial year, the Division will continue to implement these programmes
to empower communities on their rights and responsibilities.  These
programmes will be enhanced by the purchase of a mobile clinic to provide
education and information programmes to those communities who have little
or no access to regional or satellite offices.  The Division has also budgeted for
a vigorous information campaign.  This campaign will play a collaborative role
and will provide marginalised communities with information packages that will
inform consumers on their rights and responsibilities.


  o F 
 
LIQUOR AFFAIRS


The Provincial Liquor Board received 1 133 applications in terms of Section 19
(new), Section 120 (renewal) and Section 113 (transfers).  During 1998/1999
financial year, 1 530 applications were approved and 500 licenses issued,
which includes applications lodged in 1996/1997 financial year which were
deferred.  127 applications were turned down whilst 56 were struck off the roll
as they did not comply with the regulations.

Chairperson, indeed there are details of the different sectors within the
Department and the amounts that are put under them.  I think for the sake of
time, I would therefore submit and request that the House approves this budget
of my Department.  Thank you.


  o F -
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!
            ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I now wish to call upon the hon
Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee Mr Hamilton to address the House for
15 minutes.

I just have a little announcement to make.  He has brought in a map that I hope
he is going to use to illustrate some of the points he wants to make.  I have
allowed that and the Speaker did also agree to it.  Over to you, sir.


  o F 

 
MR A J HAMILTON:
  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, yes, I would like
to thank both the Speaker and yourself.  I realise it is an exceptional privilege
and I am very glad to have that map there which, amongst other things, I hope
will prove that such things as shown on the map are possible.

I am not going to bother to open these.  We already know that that is the
completed study on the airport, and this is the preliminary pre(c)feasibility study
on the feasibility of a port on the Durban site which the hon the Minister and
the hon former Premier, in their foresight, instructed me to commission from
the consultants.  There they are.

You will recall in my previous address to this House that I did in fact refer to
a certain Mr Cathcart Methven.  I intend to quote.  He wrote a book called
Sketches of Durban and its Harbour, published in 1891, and I am quoting from
the foreword or the dedication by none other than Sir Charles Mitchell KCMG
who was governor of Natal.  I am going to extract an excerpt that says:

 X""
 Captain Rogers, who visited Natal more than once in about the year
1684, believing the harbour to be a river mouth, said of it, "It opens
pretty wide and is deep enough for small ships, but at the mouth of
the river is a bar which has not above 10 or 11 feet of water on it in
a spring tide, though within there is water enough".  In 1689, the
captain of the Noord found two fathoms of water in the shallowest
place over the bar at low tide.  In 1824, Lieutenant Farewell wrote of
it, "It has a port, the only one on the coast, where vessels drawing
nine feet of water can at all times enter and be as secure as in a wet
dock".  While those of greater draft are protected from a westerly
wind by a point that projects some distance forming a bay in which
there is good anchorage outside the bar."           ""
!
!&&Ԍ(tm)We know that as the Bluff.  

 X""
 Durban, being the only harbour on a coastline of 500 miles, with a
vast introductive back country behind it, its improvement as a port has
been the constant aim of both the government and the people of
Natal.  Efforts to deepen the channel entrance by removing the bar
have been continuous, though interrupted at times since 1850.  "

I told you 1870, it is 1850.  

 X""
 In that year John Milne was authorised to proceed with the plan.  The
main features of which were the construction of two piers of stone
from the Point and the Bluff respectively, and the permanent alignment
of the inner berths channel by means of rubble groins.  The object of
the outer piers was to contract the harbour entrance and to train the
tidal scour."

They were estimated to cost 77 743 Pounds.  My mental arithmetic is a bit
short, but you can multiply it by 10,6 and multiply it by 20 and you will come
at some approximation of the cost in those days.  Never mind the engineering
feat.

 X""
 In those days, the colony was in its infancy.  Its revenue in 1850 was
but 32 112 Pounds."

And yet they embarked on a 77 000 Pound contract.

 X""
 Five years later it was only 33 000 Pounds.  Want of funds cramped
the engineer's efforts and retarded progress of his work, which
nevertheless were prosecuted with such patience and stability that
they stand to this day. "

It sounds like our airport.

 X""
 They were stopped in 1857 and an era of more ambitious design, but
less steady achievement set in.  Until 10 years ago, the history of
Natal harbour was a record of uncompleted effort and unpronounced           ""
!
!&&  
failure.  Up to 1880 it was a record of vacillation an incertitude.  In
that year the creation of a recognised harbour board with defined
powers and functions and responsibilities was proposed in the
legislative council."

This council, the very same council.


  o F .
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  The same House?


  o F 

 
MR A J HAMILTON:
  The same House.

 X""
 The measure was agreed to and its author became chairman of the
board, a position he has held ever since.  His name indeed, and that
of the board of the harbour seems synonymous so unsparingly has he
devoted his time and energy to the business of the board and to the
solution of the bar problem.  Since the harbour board, under its
present auspices was established 10 years ago, that is in 1881, the
Port of Durban may be said to have been born again.  The sketches in
this book represent that port, that port as it is rather than that it was. 
To understand what transformation has been effected since the
present board came to existence, it is necessary to realise the
appearance presented a decade ago.  Looking shoreward from the
outer anchorage you saw, as now, the bold Bluff on the left with its
flagstaff and its tapering lighthouse, its steep wooded flanks and a pile
of rocks at its foot.  Looking inward from the inner bay you saw a
sandy beach with one narrow apology of a jetty jutting into the water,
a mean looking custom house, a shabby port office, a squalid iron
shed doing duty for a railway station and buildings of varying degrees
scattered along the strand."

Incidentally the first railway in South Africa was in this Province between
Durban and the Point.

 X""
 What the picture is now, is the business of this volume to reveal.  Mr
Methven has left little for the pen to tell in a descriptive sense.  He has
shown what wonders have been wrought by the enterprise and energy
he has displayed since the harbour board took command of the port.            ""
!
!&&  
It fell to him, his lot to take the work begun by his lamented
predecessor Edward Innes and carried on by that able young engineer
up to the time of his death from Elnis contracted in the self(c)devoted
discharge of his duty at the end of 1887.  With how much vigour and
success those works have been prosecuted, the sketches themselves
demonstrate.  The outer works or those directly coping with the bar
itself are represented by the two long arms that now breast the sea."

That we know as the north and south piers.

 X""
 That known fitly as the Innes breakwater projects from the Bluff into
the ocean already to a length of 2 500 feet.  It has to bear the impacts
of the seas rolling from the ocean that stretches from the Antarctic
and the Australian continents.  Yet so far scarcely a timber or block
has been dislodged.  The northern pier intended to confine the tidal
current within the narrow limits is practically a continuation of Milne's
own pier, and by the end of this year it will have reached a total length
of 2 900 feet.  The following figures serve to indicate the growth of
trade in the port and the general progress of the colony.  1850 imports
111 000 Pounds, exports 17 000 Pounds, revenue 32 000 Pounds. 
1860, 354 000 Pounds, 139 000 Pounds and 77 000 Pounds.  By
1890 imports accounted for 4 417 000 Pounds, exports 1 380 000
Pounds and revenue of 1 422 000 Pounds.  Though this region is of
varied and winsome aspect, the Government and the Legislature of the
colony have, in spite of the exceptionally severe engineering
difficulties, constructed a line of railway which branches off to
Ladysmith, 189 miles inland.  Harrismith within the Free State in one
direction and to the Transvaal frontier in the other.  Both its termini
being planted on the top of the Drakensberg Mountains.  Were it not
for this avenue of traffic provided at the cost of 6 million Pounds...."

And I did my arithmetic with the hon Haygarth over there, and that equates to
about R1,5 billion.

 X""
 The port would have been of only partial value.  The railway makes
Durban the gateway not only of Natal, but of the two inland republics
with their vast stores of mineral and pastoral wealth.  It also connects           ""
!
!&&  
the coalfields of the north district with the shore and opens up the
maritime use of the world, in the midst of the southern seas an
exhaustible supply of fuel.  The policy that has been pursued by the
Natal Government ..."


  o F j
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS.




  o F .
 
MR A J HAMILTON:
  Thank you, the peanut gallery.  Give me some protection
please.  [LAUGHTER]

 X""
 The Government's actions in dealing with this trade and harbour may
briefly be described as being:"


  o F z

  X""
 1. X

 To secure an open port as regards accessibility to vessels of
any tonnage;

 X""
 "

  o F  

  X""
 2. X

 To secure a free port as regards to the lightness or absence
of burden upon the shipping and trade;



  o F 
  X""
 3. X

 To secure a safe port protected as far as possible form the
inroads of man or nature and to connect that port with the
interior by lines of railways to each of the two republics and
to the world beyond.


Mr Chairman, a very important thing happened on the weekend.  Minister Irwin
made a statement in Isipingo, the gist of that statement which you have on
your desk says that Durban will become the greatest industrial centre in the
Southern Hemisphere.  Mr Irwin emphasises the area's importance to the
national economy and came down in favour of Durban remaining the country's
major container port.  He said it was essential for South Africa to build
industries capable of producing and exporting at well competitive prices.  He
said there were few ports or combinations of ports that could compete with
Durban in any number of respects.

I am going to read something which I think is very salutary for us.

 X""
 Relocations of affected communities through industrialisation were            ""
!
!&&  
always difficult.  That is why we have to ensure we talk to
communities.  The difference between this and previous governments
is that we will do it through the consultative process, but if interest
groups could not agree, this initiative would have to be relocated
elsewhere, not to punish the city but to meet the national interest."

We had better remember that.  Mr Chairman, I am going to read to you in the
study of the CSIR, executive summary.  I did not bother to bring the report, it
is very thick.  The summary recommends:

 X""
 In terms of providing the greatest benefit to the widest possible area,
the combination of petro(c)chemical and port development is the best
option.  This scenario combines the financial benefits of both options
as well as the air quality improvements of the petro(c)chemical
development.  Unfortunately is does exacerbate the problems
associated with transformation of the basin and the displacement of
residential areas."

Over there, just to show you this is not some pie in the sky, there is a drawing
done of the existing airport site showing a full port usage.  That is from the port
authorities themselves.  The smaller drawing next to it shows the relationship
between the existing port in yellow and the new proposed port in orange.

Mr Chairman, I read to you the growth of the cargo in the port.  Today the port
has nearly 5 000 shipping movements a year through the port, handles 50
million tons and generates over R2 billion worth of revenue, creates 66 000
jobs putting in R4 billion of disposable income into the Durban economy, the
DFR economy.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Four minutes.


  o F ^
 
MR A J HAMILTON:
  Thank you.  It is most important for us, and I want to
emphasise, I have constrained my comments today to the Port of Durban. 
What I am saying for the Port of Durban in terms of its importance to this
economy and the national economy applies in the same way to Richards Bay.

Because of the interaction between the port and the airport, I want to touch on            ""
!
!&&  
something that the Minister has touched on, and indeed we have all touched
on.  I have to ask the question again, and I have to emphasise it again.  These
figures following are the latest figures from Minister Jordan.  In the past three
years tourism has contributed 190 000 jobs to this economy.  That is at least
190 times 5 if you take the dependency factor which is damn near a million
people living out of it.

It accounts for a total of 737 000 jobs in total, which is 7% of the total
employment in South Africa.  As a measure of GDP it contributed 8,2% of our
GDP at R53 billion.  We all know that if you are serious about jobs, and if you
want to create jobs quickly, the quickest way to do that is through massive
promotion of tourism.  There is no quicker way.  Every 11 tourists through this
Province creates three full(c)time formal sector jobs.  Yet, the national
governments and provincial governments before it have always treated tourism
as a Cinderella portfolio.  It is always tacked on to something else, something
inane like sport or environment.  Where is Ina.  [LAUGHTER]




  o F 
 
MR A J HAMILTON:
  I do not mean that, I withdraw that.



  o F 
 THE CHAIRPERSON:
  One minute left.


  o F 
 
MR A J HAMILTON:
  Mr Chairman, I speak for taking the decision that job
creation is our primary function.  People out there are starving, people out there
have not got hope.  If you create jobs in tourism, and you will create them
quicker than any other way, you stimulate the building industry, the motor
industry, the curio industry, the hotel industry, the pots and pans industry,
every single industry and you bring optimism.  You bring the tourists first, they
look around and they see this is a fantastic country, and lo and behold, they
have not been killed walking down the street going to their hotel, that it is
actually quite safe.  They look again and they see there are business
opportunities here, and they like the place, and they like all of us.  We are
friendly and we welcome them.  Then they come along and they bring their
businesses.

That is how we grow our economy, first the tourists and then their business. 
If I have got nothing else to say today, let us grasp the challenge and grasp the
opportunity that the National Department of Trade and Industry has handed us           ""
!
!&&  
down by saying let us go forward with both port options, and let us for God's
sake do something about tourism in a real meaningful, committed and steadfast
way, even if it is at the cost of other things, because 7% of our kids get jobs.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you hon member, your time is up.


  o F L
 
MR A J HAMILTON:
  Thank you.


  o F 

 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr
Mabuyakhulu to address the House for 12 minutes.


  o F z

 
MR M MABUYAKHULU:
  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, it is
always fascinating following the hon member Mr Hamilton, precisely because
he likes reminiscing and he did a lot of that during his speech today.

I just want to take a cue from a comment he made, in a way which is an
admission, an admission that this Provincial Government, and in particular the
majority party over the last four and a half years have not been able to take the
issues of the economy very seriously.  An example of that is around the
question of tourism, which he mentioned.

He said that this Government has regarded tourism as a Cinderella, meaning
that the majority party has not internalised the fact that if you allocate more
money to the economic affairs and tourism, that money goes towards a
productive investment, an investment at the end of the day that will go
towards tourism.  A bigger slice of the cake will go towards tourism.  Thereby
you will see the creation of jobs.  I am actually agreeing with the hon member
and probably his voice is the only voice that is not actually heard properly
amongst the members sitting on the opposite side.


  o F @
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F -
 
MR M MABUYAKHULU:
  Now the issue therefore that I am raising, what I am
saying is, I think we are lucky, that despite the fact that this Department, in
particular, has not been allocated the necessary resources to achieve the things           ""
!
!&&  
we want to achieve in this Province, that because of the foresight of the
Minister who handles this portfolio, and he has handled it in the best interests
of this Province, and that he has been able to transcend the difficulties of the
limited resources at his disposal.


  o F j
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION.


  o F .
 
MR M MABUYAKHULU:
  We really need to give a very clear indication, from
our side, that come June 2, and after June 2, a lot of resources will be
allocated to this Department.  We will ensure that economic affairs is taken
seriously, that we invest money, and that money will in return be able to have
a multiplying effect.


  o F z

 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Just two months, that is all.


  o F >

 
MR M MABUYAKHULU:
  Another issue we need to indicate very clearly, is the
fact that this Province has a major potential for attracting foreign direct
investments.  From the figures presented to us by the hon Minister, it is very
clear that with an integrated and very coercive macro economic plan this
Province, which is supported by the majority party, will likely see even a better
performance compared to other provinces.  

In addition to what the Minister has said, the latest investment by a company,
John Deere Construction, has been a strategic alliance investment in Richards
Bay with Bell Equipment to the tune of R180 million, which was announced last
week Thursday.

This is clearly indicative of the fact that you do begin to see business, in
particular foreign investors, having confidence in our own Province.  But
precisely because people know that after 2 June the ANC will be governing this
Province.


  o F @
 


HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F -
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  That is all, two months to go.  Bye(c)bye PAC, bye(c)bye.




  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Bye, Mrs Downs, bye(c)bye.            ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
(tm)THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Order please!  Order please!


  o F 
 
MR M MABUYAKHULU:
  The other element, Mr Chairman, which I think is
important to mention is the one which relates to the SDIs.  It is clear that the
ANC, and in this particular case, the National Cabinet clearly understands that
you do need to have an integrated approach to development.  If you look at the
concept of the SDIs, and the kind of economic benefits and opportunities that
they are likely to bring in terms of investment are quite immense in this
Province.  Once again, you ask yourself the question, does the majority of the
members sitting opposite understand the impact that these SDIs can have on
this Province?


  o F 

 
AN HON MEMBER:
  No, I doubt it.


  o F \

 
MR M MABUYAKHULU:
  I doubt it.  Because if they clearly understood it, the
kind of issues that we are dealing with, particularly around some of the anchor
projects, using St Lucia as an example, you would expect a different attitude
from the members sitting opposite.  Particularly senior members sitting opposite
when we deal with those kinds of projects.  Once again, development does not
happen through a will, you must have the political will and the guts to be able
to drive processes.


  o F l
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Teach them, Mike, teach them.


  o F 0
 
MR M MABUYAKHULU:
  And I believe, Chairperson, that the members sitting
opposite and this Minister, who leads this Department have clearly indicated
that not only does he have the political will to do things, but he can actually
put his shoulder to the wheel to ensure that things do happen.  We think that
the people of this Province after 2 June this year, will see more of that.


  o F |
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F @
 
MR M MABUYAKHULU:
  The other element which is very important for
economic growth in this Province is the one that relates to building a strong
industrial base.  Here I definitely agree with the hon the Minister, particularly
with regard to the focus.  Our focus in terms of developing our strong industrial
base should be that we must focus on the downstream production activity, and           ""
!
!&&  
that we are able to stimulate that part of industrial growth in this Province.  It
is clear to us that it is at that level that we can begin to ensure that we
stimulate the economy of this Province.  We are able to ensure that these
SMMEs in particular play a pivotal role in the growth of this economy.  Once
again, I realise that from the people sitting opposite it is only Mr Alex Hamilton
who agrees with this valid point that we are making.


  o F .
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 

 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Teach them.  Teach them.


  o F 	
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  And Mathaba.


  o F z

 
AN HON MEMBER:
  MacKenzie is listening.


  o F >

 
MR M MABUYAKHULU:
  It is important that the work that has been done in
this Department around the question of creating support measures for the
SMMEs, clearly what we do need is that sufficient resources should be put into
this Department in order to ensure that greater work can be done to stimulate
that part of the economy which we need so desperately in this Province.

It is important as well, Mr Chairman, to also look very clearly at the notion of
an integrated economic growth and development.  I think it is important that
we all understand that you cannot talk about development in isolation to the
issues of the economy, and anyone therefore, either by mistake or either by a
question that he does not understand how economics work, who believes that
he can have an artificial distinction of these issues will actually be fooling
himself or herself.

We are therefore very, very worried when we are actually hearing noises to the
effect that the old Boerevolk are calling that the economic development of the
ex(c)KwaZulu be revived, because it therefore indicates that we are going to be
able to fragment in that regard.  We believe that it is dangerous and this
Province does not need that kind of an approach.


  o F -
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Two minutes left.
            ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
MR M MABUYAKHULU:
  We need an approach which is integrated.  We need
an approach that we can ensure, which is similar to the SDI's concept, because
that approach integrates and intertwines economic opportunities with
development.


  o F j
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  They are going backwards.


  o F .
 
MR M MABUYAKHULU:
  We would therefore once again say yes, we are lucky
that we do not believe that this concept will ever see the light of day in any
event, because we are left with two months before the election.

Finally, Mr Chairman, I strongly believe that it is important for this Province,
and not for any sectarian party political interest, that for the people of this
Province we really believe, when we actually sit down in the new Legislature
to decide on a budget, that that budget should always be informed by
economic imperatives.  For the last four and a half years we cannot say that
our budget was based on economic imperatives, and as long as we do not
understand the importance of investing in the economy, if you actually pay
peanuts you get monkeys.  In this case, if we do not invest in the economy you

  o F 
 will get very little.



  Thank you.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr Mabuyakhulu.  I now wish to call upon the
hon member Mr Tarr to address the House for 10 minutes.


  o F 0
 
MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):
  Mr Chairman, I would like to respond briefly to
one or two of the comments made by Mr Mabuyakhulu.  He spoke about the
new Legislature, and of course the new Legislature is still going to be controlled
by the same party, I must tell him that.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F ^
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Order please!




  o F "
 
MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):
  We would very much agree that the budget

  o F -
 should be driven by economic imperatives.



  But unfortunately what this
Legislature inherited was budgets where there was no discretionary expenditure
at all.  Most of the budgets were taken up on personnel expenditure, and also           ""
!
!&&  
issues historically relating to the incorporation of KwaZulu and Natal as it was.

But then of course, we are hamstrung by that side of the House, in that we
cannot increase the component of our present budget from what is fixed.  That
we cannot do anything about, we cannot increase the amount of discretionary
expenditure on capital developments or whatever it is, precisely because that
party over there will not give us a retrenchment tool for the surplus civil
servants which we have, and we all know that we have them.

We are not suggesting as a party that civil servants should be fired en masse
and put out on the streets, but there should be a retrenchment tool so we can
start dealing with this process.  But of course, that party over there will not
touch this until after the election, because before the election it might lose
them votes.  So before the election they put their party interests before the
interests of this particular Province.


  o F  

 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):
  Then just to go to a few other issues, Mr
Chairman, that hinder us here.  You know, you have to mention the word "EPZ"
in this House to members of the ANC, and EPZ is like asking them to take
poison.  They deliberately misconstrue what EPZs are and what EPZs can do. 
I would submit that under the law of the jungle, EPZs can be a bad thing, but
there are certain advantages in having EPZs, and why do they not actually call
them something else and then maybe they would be prepared to sort of look
at it more closely.

The hon member spoke about the Lubombo SDI and the SDI concept.  Yes, we
like that, but he talked about integrated development.  If I understand things
correctly, the degree of co(c)ordination between the Lubombo SDI and our own
provincial department is severely lacking.  The amount of working between the
SDI and our own provincial departments we really need to look at that, and
make sure that what is happening as far as the SDI is concerned fits in the
multidisciplinary approach with our own departments.

That hon member also spoke about investment, and he spoke about the ripple
effect of investment and creating jobs.  Yes, we agree with that, but I must tell           ""
!
!&&  
you our problem is we are getting investments and we are bragging about the
percentage of investment that we are getting, but our investment is not
creating jobs.  One of the reasons our investment is not creating jobs is again
because that hon member and his party have made the labour market so
inflexible, that the guys who are creating jobs prefer when they are investing
to buy machines rather than create jobs.  That is something which, clearly we
can lay at the door of that hon member and his party.  If they want jobs and
investments to create jobs, they need to look at making the labour market more
flexible.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 

 
MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):
  Mr Chairman, then we get back to the whole
question of tourism.  Everybody in this House has always agreed that tourism
is the easiest and quickest way to create jobs, but we all pay lip service to it. 
We do nothing about it, and quite clearly this is something which the hon
Minister is going to have to fight harder to do something about.  Let us take for
example the whole issue of St Lucia which the hon Minister spoke about. 
Unless we do something to turn St Lucia into a lucrative tourism destination in
the next eight years, I can tell members in this House they are going to start
mining St Lucia, and Mr Hamilton will probably be pleased to hear that.  But
quite clearly, the local community at St Lucia, unless there are some visible
benefits from conserving and developing that area as a tourism potential, the
local community, why should they not then be the beneficiary of exploiting the
resources which are already there.

Everyone thinks someone else is going to do something about it.  People think
the Parks Board might do something about it, other people think Economic
Affairs and Tourism might help, other people think it is the private sector. 
Everyone thinks someone else is going to do something, and quite clearly
someone needs to take responsibility for this, take the bull by the horns and
actually do something about St Lucia.

Mr Chairman, I would like to get onto another issue, which was really what I
intended to talk about today.  I suppose you could argue that the issue I want
to deal with could perhaps be dealt with in this budget, it could perhaps also
be equally well dealt with in Minister Singh's budget.  It points out the need for           ""
!
!&&  
integrated planning in this particular Province.  What I want to talk about is job
creation and of course, when we look at job creation, one of the greatest
potentials for job creation lies in the agricultural section, and in particular it lies
in small scale irrigation farming.  With irrigation you can take the risk out of
production, you grow high value crops and of course, you can allocate small
plots to people.

There are large areas of this Province that are ideally suited to this, especially
in the sugar cane area, the sugar belt, the good soils, good climate and water. 
Crops such as mangos, litchis, bananas and many other subtropical crops fit in
there.  That is the agricultural component of the land and growing them.  These
things just do not happen. Someone has got to actually put the package
together, it has got to be an integrated effort from the hon Minister's
Department, SMMEs that could be involved in processing, SMMEs that could
be involved in packaging, SMMEs that could be involved in marketing, because
that is the greatest problem facing a small producer.  That is the marketing, the
processing and the packaging of his product.  Quite clearly this is something
which falls into two camps.  The one camp is the hon Minister, the other camp
is the hon Minister of Agriculture, but it does not stop there.  It also falls in the
camp of the hon Minister of Transport sitting there, and so it continues.

The only way to really resolve these issues, and I believe that that is for some
co(c)ordinated planning throughout the Province.  I know that this is now to be
centralised in the Premier's Department, and I hope that all the necessary
information actually gets there so that all the ministries somehow can work
together in this process.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Two minutes left.


  o F 
 
MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):
  I do not know to what extent it is being done,
but I would love to see one example in this Province where we have got the
Ministry of Trade and Industry, Ministry of Agriculture, Ministry of Transport
and then of course Education and Health at another particular level, and even
the parastatals such as Eskom etcetera, where they have actually co(c)ordinated
their efforts into a development programme, for example, acquisition of land,
setting on the land irrigation farmers, establishment of co(c)operatives etcetera,
etcetera.           ""
!
!&&Ԍ(tm)It is these sort of things, and I know it is easy to stand in this House and glibly
talk about them, but if we want to create jobs out there in the rural areas, and
not just jobs where people scratch out a living, jobs where people can live
decently and well, those are the sort of things which I believe need dealing
with.  I would like to hear during the course of this debate to what extent the
hon Minister and his Department are already co(c)ordinating their activities with
other departments, and what vision there is in this particular direction going
down the track somewhere.

Just to recap then, Mr Chairman, obviously if we are looking at development,
we do need a co(c)ordinated approach from all our departments.  We cannot
carry on with each department doing its own line function and leaving it at that. 
We need a bigger vision, we need to try and co(c)ordinate all these activities and
I would certainly hope that down the track this will become more the norm than
it is at present.


  o F  

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  The hon member's time is up.


  o F 
 
MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):
  Mr Chairman, I thank you for those few words.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr Tarr.  I now wish to call upon the hon
member Mr Matthee to address the House for five minutes.


  o F N
 
MR J C MATTHEE:
  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I would like to talk
on the issue of the KZN Tourism Authority, the Board that has not been
established yet.  If we go back, during 1997 the Tourism Act was passed by
this Parliament, and then an interim Steering Committee sat for almost a year. 
During 1998, the Portfolio Committee recommended various people to serve on
the Tourism Authority Board.

I only notice now for the first time, from the hon the Minister's speech that he
mentioned on page 11, that it would appear that there were not enough funds
available to appoint a Board.  I sincerely hope that with the improved money
situation, this Board will come into being as soon as possible.

I refer to what the hon Mr Tarr said earlier, and that is, we have to co(c)ordinate
the activities of tourism in KwaZulu(c)Natal.  It is all very well that we have nice           ""
!
!&&  
harbours, and we have efficient harbours, and we have a new airport, but if we
do not co(c)ordinate all the role(c)players in tourism, then each one is scratching
his own little part or doing his own little thing.

So therefore it is critical that this Board be established as a matter of urgency
where the role(c)players, like the NGOs, our business community, the tourism
community and a host of other members can be placed on this Board to coordinate.  Every little town in KwaZulu(c)Natal has got a little tourist office, even
if it is in one of the housewife's rooms in the house where she is interested in
promoting the battlefields or certain crafts that is made by people.  There is a
multitude.  We talk about the Midlands Meander.  We talk about the Azalea
Trail down the South Coast of Natal.  I can name a lot of issues and areas in
KwaZulu(c)Natal that are not co(c)ordinated.  There is nobody giving direction, and
I again refer to what Mr Tarr is aiming at, and I agree with him entirely.  So
until we do that, our tourism is not going to get off the ground sufficiently to
create the jobs, and to create the infrastructure that we desperately need. 
Sincerely, I hope that the hon the Minister in his reply, and please forgive me,
I have to possibly leave before his reply, if he will forgive me for not being here,
but I sincerely hope that he will in his reply give us some indication as to when
he envisages this Board to come into being so that we can get our act together.

We have Mr Garth Coleman and his staff running the show at the moment, but
I do believe that we have a duty, and it is stated in the Act that we must get
the community involved as well, and that is at the Board level.  Thank you very
much indeed, Mr Chairman.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr Matthee.  I now call upon the hon member
Mr Aulsebrook to address the House for seven minutes.


  o F ^
 
MR J F AULSEBROOK:
  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I am certainly
the first to agree that R108 million budget for this Department is certainly a
paltry sum for what we would expect of this Department, and certainly if we
were serious about economic growth, job creation, we would be allocating
tenfold to this Department.  We need a paradigm shift of financial allocation.
            ""
!
!&&  ԌBut in saying that, I must admit that while listening to the Minister's speech,
halfway through I turned to my colleague and said: "I am sure the Minister is
reading last year's speech".  Nothing seems to have changed in a year.  This
is one Department one would really expect to be dynamic in that there is a lot
expected of it.  I know even the hon Mabuyakhulu said we need more money,
while I am advocating and saying that really, if we are serious, we would
allocate more money to this Department, but I must admit, I am not confident
that just more money would solve the problem here.  You know, we have heard
members suggesting year after year about export processing zones, such of the
likes, and nobody really takes it up and does something about it, we just do not
seem to be going anywhere.  That is of a major concern to me.

The hardy annual KZT story.  We have heard that four years in a row, KZT
needing more and more money, but somehow or other we never actually find
the solutions to our problems, and it is these distressing issues that concern
me.  But really, there is no greater need in this Province than economic growth. 
We are actually in a catch 22 situation where our resources are committed to
address our social needs, leaving little for the promotion of economic growth.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
MR J F AULSEBROOK:
  Without economic growth poverty will perpetuate, and
the dependence on State welfare will in fact also grow.  This scenario leads us
to social decline and degeneration, and certainly a bleak future for all in this
Province.  How do we remedy this situation?  I must say, it is not an easy
situation to remedy and there are no quick(c)fix solutions, but we need to resolve
it and we need determination in order to succeed.

This will require commitment from all role(c)players, members of this House, from
employers, employees, local investors, trade unions and certain most
importantly us as government need to set the climate for economic growth. 
We cannot expect private enterprise to do it all when we have not created the
climate.

Government must draw up at least a 10 year plan for economic growth.  We
have never seen a positive long term plan here, a plan that everybody can buy
into.  Even the poorest of the poor will buy into your 10 year plan the minute           ""
!
!&&  
they see that unemployment is coming down, and that they have some hope. 
Someone earlier on, and I think it may be the hon Mr Hamilton, who spoke of
a province of no hope.  That is my concern, that is what we are becoming, a
country of no hope, and it is one that we were all so enthusiastic about a few
years ago, economic decline creates problems, and I ask the Minister please to
actually focus on job creation and putting more effort into economic growth.

But as a nation, we have actually become a nation of no hopers.  Wherever you
go one hears, no matter who it is, the rich, the poor, black, white, coloured,
they are all complaining about crime and unemployment.


  o F 	
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION.


  o F z

 
MR J F AULSEBROOK:
  Are you saying that your people do not complain about
unemployment?  Everybody complains about unemployment.  It hurts
everybody, especially the unemployed.


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION


  o F 
 
MR J F AULSEBROOK:
  That is where it comes from.  AIDS, everybody has a
problem with AIDS.  Lack of justice in this country, corruption.  This is leading
to a spiralling decline of our country.


  o F N
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Two minutes left.


  o F 
 
MR J F AULSEBROOK:
  And it is only a turnaround in our economy that is
going to save us.  Mark my words, the only way we are going to be saved is
so long as our economy picks up, and I really do believe that we are not doing
enough for this.

Now really, what I say, while economic growth is the responsibility of our
national department, we as a Province cannot afford to sit back, we need to do

  o F @
 something ourselves to kick(c)start and get our economy going.

  For that I
certainly appeal to the Department of Economic Affairs to please take the lead.

In conclusion, Mr Chairman, I support this vote.  Thank you.

            ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you.  Next on the list of speakers is the hon
member Mr Nel who will address the House for seven minutes.


  o F j
 
MR W U NEL:
  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  The hon Mr Aulsebrook seems to
have the impression that we are a bunch of no hopers.  I must tell him that my
party is in business only because we are a party of hope and faith, and if we
were not, we would not bother.  We actually believe that there is something
better to be achieved, and having looked at the way that they have governed,
he and his party have governed this Province, we certainly believe that there
is something better in store for this particular Province.


  o F z

 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F >

 
MR W U NEL:
  Recently, a friend of mine reminded me that life is not a dress
rehearsal, and it came as a bit of a shocking reminder to me that in fact what
he was saying is absolutely true, that none of the roads that we have travelled
we will travel again.  Perhaps it will be as well for this Government in this
Province also to remember that their tenure in KwaZulu(c)Natal is also not a dress
rehearsal, and they cannot just simply come back again and again to do the
jobs that they did not do before.

In particular too, I am reminded of that in looking at the items on the list of the
hon Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism's Portfolio.  Now to his defence,
he has got a bit of an unmanageable Portfolio that ranks far and wide, but there
are a whole host of dockets here, like in Safety and Security, a lot of dockets
that are open, but very few that have been closed and dealt with and
completed.  I will start by just going through his report.

One of the first matters that comes to mind is that of the SDI.  Much was made
of the SDIs, and indeed I think that is one of the beacons of hope, not only for
this Province, but also for others, but in particular for KwaZulu(c)Natal, the SDIs
are important.  But the way it was tackled to begin with, was very politically
loaded and there was a great deal of suspicion backwards and forwards
between National Government and the Province, and as a result two or three
years down the track we have very little to show for it.  A lot of "almost           ""
!
!&&  
dones" and so on, but nothing concrete to show for it.  As the hon member Mr
Tarr said, that the day is fast approaching where people will start saying: "Well,
you have now blown it", and a valuable asset such as the eastern shores will
then perhaps again come up for discussion for mining operations.  So we must
be very careful how we respond to these things and do it as a matter of haste.

But having referred to the SDIs, there is one matter that was reported in the
media today, that is really a cause for concern, and whilst it is not the Minister
that caused the problem, we would appreciate him attending to it.  That is this
incident at St Lucia that has caused a diplomatic row when in fact one of the
hotels or institutions there turned away the First Secretary of the Netherlands
Embassy because he was so(c)called coloured.  I think this is a disgraceful
incident.  I mean it is always disgraceful, but it is particularly serious when it
happens in a place like St Lucia, which is touted as a World Heritage Site, the
central development node of the SDI in that region, and I think that sort of
incident needs to be dealt with quite swiftly to make sure that nothing of the
kind happens again.


  o F 
 

But to move away then from the SDI and come to the KFC.  Many people have
talked about the KFC and their achievements, but in particular I would like to
applaud the achievements of Ithala Bank in servicing a community that many
of the commercial banks had written off as unserviceable, because there is not
enough money to be made.  Their deposits are too small, and the administrative
costs are too high.  Ithala has done a magnificent job, and we would like to say
strength to their arm.

The Sharks Board, a couple of remarks were made about the Sharks Board. 
However, reading in the report, and also in the Sharks Board annual report,
whilst they speak of the POD, shark repelling device, and suggesting that they
are looking forward to actually turning this situation around, it is really a teaser
and there is nothing much of substance to give us confidence that this is
possible.  We would like to know is there really still mileage in POD.

We are told also of KZT, and it just goes to show how far and wide the
Minister's responsibilities go.  KwaZulu Transport Corporation which now is
embarking on refurbishing, have ordered 125 new buses, probably at a cost of
around about R80 million, if my arithmetic is correct, and if my recollection is           ""
!
!&&  
right, and I would like to ask the Minister, whilst we are confident or hopeful
rather that the new contracts will be profitable, whether we are not exposing
ourselves to a very big financial risk if things go wrong.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Two minutes left.


  o F L
 
MR W U NEL:
  Because if KZT now refurbish to the tune of about R80 million
and things go wrong, who is going to pick up the tab.

The Tourist Authority, people have remarked on.  I can only say that I am
disappointed that it has taken so long to get them going properly, and that still
we do not have a Board.  We hear the Minister's argument about not having
money, but certainly we would have thought that the Board could operate on
a shoestring and could have done something by now.

Let us please move away from being a nation of plans, macro plans, provincial
growth and development strategies, White Papers, Green Papers.  Let us
remember that we are in fact not busy with a dress rehearsal here, and that we
do not in another five years time have another 110 dockets that are still open
and very little delivered.  We must now make it our business to deliver to the
people of this Province as for the rest of the country.  Thank you.


  o F l
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr Nel.  I now call upon the hon member Mr
Dingila to address the House for seven minutes.


  o F 
 
MR T F DINGILA:
  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I would like to begin my debate
with an incident that took place in this chamber in the morning during the
period of questions.  I was reminded of a Zulu saying that goes thus:  "Uma

  o F 
 ichalaha lidlula izimaku ziyakhonkotha".  [When an adult male dog passes by

  o F 
 the puppies bark].


  o F ^
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F "
 
MR T F DINGILA:
  I know that we cannot change the past, but one is
sometimes tempted to refer to the history in order to change the future.

I would like to express my greatest concern regarding the economy of our            ""
!
!&&  
beloved country South Africa, most of all about our beloved Province KwaZuluNatal.  The unemployment cry is the old song sung by the disadvantaged South
Africans.  Even during the years of apartheid, the unemployment rate was high. 
That is the very reason why the apartheid regime promoted influx control.  Job
reservation was an unwanted remedy for unemployment.  A huge number of
South Africans in the early 60s went into exile.  That also did not cure the
disease of unemployment.  Although the greatest enemy of our brothers in exile
was Dr Buthelezi, it is the very Inkatha that advocated the release of Dr
Mandela and others.


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Correct, that is a fact.


  o F 

 
MR T F DINGILA:
  Yithi laba Sihlalo ohloniphekile esasishaya itoyi toyi Olundi
sithi; "We Botha khulula uMandela".  Angikhulumi Sihlalo ngabafana
abangangaleya nsizwa engaphesheya babegxuma mahhala sifisa ukuthi
abafowethu abaku(c)exile babuye.


  o F 
 
TRANSLATION:  
Chairperson, we were the ones toyi toyi at Ulundi, saying "
Hey Botha, release Mandela."  Not to mention, Chairperson, that boys of the
age of that young man across there, would jump so high, wishing that our
brothers would return from exile.  T/E


  o F l
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 0
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Order please!  Order please!  Hon members, order please!


  o F 
 


MR T F DINGILA:  
On that note, when things took a change, Dr Mandela was
released and our brothers in exile came back.  To my greatest amazement,
immediately after he was released, the ANC youth embarked on singing as well. 
Contrary to what we were saying, they were then calling our President by

  o F |
 name, saying:  "Ugatsha Akagwetshwe Intambo".  ["Gatsha must be

  o F ^
 executed"].  I was so shocked about that, because that is not what we were

  o F @
 taught by uMntwana waKwa-Phindangene  [the Prince of Kwa-Phindangene]
when Dr Mandela was in gaol, as well as by our brothers.  He longed for that
time when he would be released so that South Africa could then really be
liberated.
            ""
!
!&&  ԌThe whole country is now enduring the consequences of a poor situational
analysis implemented by the ANC on their return from gaol and exile. 
Nevertheless, a sin confessed is a sin repented, because the old man, the State

  o F 
 President, admitted once that Intombi ishelwa Ngamanga.  [A young woman is

  o F 
 wooed by lies].  That is why the old man is highly respected worldwide.  Why
can we not do the same?  Yes, why can you as the ANC not do the same? 
Why do you not follow suite?  Copy from your own leader.  Admit the wrong.

Mr Chair, my way forward is thus:  Let us bury the past.  If the ship sinks we
will all perish.  Black, yellow, orange, red, whoever.  So we must work in the
best interests of the country.  We need each other politically or racially.  One
has failed to destroy the other, because nature has a funny way of making
people fall in love.  One is useless without the other, but I am not going to
deceive you good people.  We will differ at the ballot box on June 2, but we
will yet still agree at the tender box later.

I do commend the hon Minister of Economic Affairs for his positive move of
buying new buses for KZT.  This is long overdue.  People of Ndwedwe
perceived that this company is marginalised because it was a product of the
KwaZulu Government.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Two minutes left.


  o F N
 
MR T F DINGILA:
  Should the Phoenix/Ndwedwe depot receive 30 buses out
of this allocation, the Ndwedwe people, I promise you, Mr Minister, will reward
you by giving you a membership card for the IFP.  That would be your reward.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!  [LAUGHTER]


  o F 
 
MR T F DINGILA:
  Hon Chair, on page 27 of the annual report of the Minister,
I regretfully lament the exclusion of Ndwedwe.  They have got all the projects
that were allocated to various areas, but Ndwedwe is excluded.  I know, Mr
Minister, that it was just a slip of the pen.  As we bury the past together you
will rectify that area of omission in the near future.  I, however, support the
budget.  I thank you.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!            ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you.  Next on the speaker's list is the hon member
Mrs Downs who will address the House for seven minutes.


  o F 
 
MRS J M DOWNS:
  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  If I can start on a lighter note. 
I was very much afraid that the Minister was going to go into competition with
the hon Minister of Welfare as to the length of their speeches, and I sincerely
thank him that he did not, because I think this House has generated enough hot
air in the last two weeks to send three balloons around the globe five times. 
[LAUGHTER]  Just on a lighter note, Mr Chair.

Having said that, my comment about the hot air generated in this House, I think
needs to take us to more serious matters, and several of my colleagues this
afternoon have raised it.  I do not think that we really think of what it means
to families that have six/seven adult members that are jobless.  If we look at
the statistics in KwaZulu(c)Natal, we look at a situation where the national
average of unemployment is about 26%, and in KwaZulu(c)Natal it rises to as
much as 30%, maybe even higher.  This is really serious, and we need to take
this seriously.  We need to stop talking about it.  We need to do something
about it.

Now unlike my colleagues, I do not have any great faith in Tourism Boards and
things like that, because anything that is engendered in bureaucracy becomes
bureaucratic.  My greatest criticism I think of this Department, is the fact that
we should leave business to business, and bureaucracy to government.  What
we need is less red tape, not more.  

What do I mean by that?  Let us just take POD for example.  It is actually quite
a brilliant invention.


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  It lost money.


  o F ^
 
MRS J M DOWNS:
  It is a brilliant invention.  Why did it lose money?  


  o F "
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION.


  o F -
 
MRS J M DOWNS:
  No, because a parastatal tried to continue with the
business aspect of it.  Once the scientists and the development had been done,           ""
!
!&&  
it should have been sold.  We could take royalties and let business market it. 
What are we doing trying to market it?  It is crazy.  We have lost money on it,
and we will continue to lose money on it unless we send it out to business
where it belongs, and in the process create jobs.  If we take a royalty we can
more than take back our investment.  I really believe that.

It is the same with tourism.  I agree, tourism has the greatest potential of
anything else in this Province, but if you look around us, what is stopping it? 
Why are people going to the Western Cape?  What has the Western Cape got
that we have not got?  Very little.


  o F 	
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F z

 
MRS J M DOWNS:
  Very, very little.  They have got very beautiful scenery, but
their weather is foul.  They have Table Mountain, we have got the
Drakensberg.  You know, they do not have Hluhluwe.  They do not have the
premier rhino breeding programme in the world.  What are we doing to market
that?  We are not taking it seriously enough, and pushing these aspects of our
Province.  We have got so much potential in this Province, both industrially and
for tourists, and we can maximise our marketing of these things, and this
includes Durban and the Point development.  We have not really looked at who
we are, and we have taken a scattered approach into what we need to focus
on.  Durban is clearly a domestic tourist market.  It has been proven statistically
and so on.  So let us focus Durban centre into the domestic tourist market.

There are other aspects that can become an international tourist market using
Durban as a bounce(c)off place.  We are not marketing ourselves in a focused
manner, and it does not only depend on this Department.  We need to look at
all our prospects.  Job creation depends on so many things.  It depends on the
education of our labour force.  It depends on the infrastructure that we have,
and it depends on how friendly the bureaucracy is towards the development of
business.  Why have we not got a waterfront?  For goodness sakes, Randburg
has got a waterfront and it is a landlocked place.  Why have we not got a
waterfront?  Because we have not had business people driving it.  When we
look at business people who are driving the airport initiative, it is starting to
move, because people who are interested are pushing it forward, not any
politicians, there are several business people involved, that are pushing it           ""
!
!&&  
forward for the benefit of this Province.  It is going to take people of vision, not
money, people of vision and character to actually push forward what we need
to do in this Province to supply the jobs that we need.  It is imperative.

There is one last question that I actually want to ask this Department.


  o F L
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Two minutes.


  o F 

 
MRS J M DOWNS:
  Whether it is considered, and whether it is workshopped
with business or whether anything has been done about it, and that is on the
question of AIDS.  AIDS is not just a Health Department issue.  AIDS affects
everybody, and more especially business.  What are we doing to involve
businesses in our AIDS prevention programme?  What are we doing to involve
businesses in planning for half of their workforce that has been trained to die,
and how they are going to replace them, because those are the facts that we
have on the table?  One out of three people in this Province is HIV positive. 
One out of three people.  That is a huge number.  The majority of these are
economically active people.  What are we doing?  What is this Department
doing to get business aware of what is going to happen with AIDS?  If you
think it is going to create jobs, it is not.  It is going to cost a whole lot of
money, and we need our economy to turn over and to make money so that we
can have jobs.

The very last point that I want to make, Mr Chair.  To Mr Hamilton, and the
Minister, and the people that are driving the airport and the port project.  Take
a look at TEAL for your funding proposals.  Have a really good look at TEAL for
it.  Thank you.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F |
 


THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, hon member.  I now call upon the hon
member Mr Mkhwanazi to address the House for four minutes.


  o F "
 
MR J D MKHWANAZI:
  Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson.  I want to
mention a few positive aspects about the Minister's report.  I congratulate him
and I support his vote.
            ""
!
!&&  ԌOne is the issue of the tourism budget.  I remember last year at this time I was
one of the people who made the loudest noise about the budget allocated to
the cow that was giving us milk.  This year it is better and I believe that it will
achieve what everybody expects from it.


  o F j
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  And the goose that lays the egg.


  o F .
 
MR J D MKHWANAZI:
  The next one is the issue of KFC and Ithala Bank.  I
want to make a point about this, because KFC and Ithala Bank are helping
mostly the disadvantaged, the African people, in rural areas.  So we must say
hallelujah to them and we wish them the best, Mr Minister.

So is KwaZulu Transport.  I felt very bad, not because one of my members was
an MD of KwaZulu Transport when there was a threat that the KwaZulu
Transport was to be closed, but because it is the needy African people who
have no vehicles to get to work and depend on KwaZulu Transport.  With that,
Mr Minister, we congratulate you.

I also want to mention a few business concerns with the little time I have.  The
question, Mr Minister, of the Business Rehabilitation Trust Fund.  I want to refer
the Minister to last year's report on page 29, where the Minister reported that:

 X""
 The regulations have now been tabled before the Portfolio Committee
for its consideration and input.  The call for nominations to the Board
has also been undertaken."

But up to now, the Minister reports on page 19 that:

 X""
 The main delay in finalising the regulations has been caused by
concerns raised by Khula... "

And so on and so on, and you say:

 X""
 We are now exploring other options ..."

Blah(c)blah(c)blah.  This is a contradiction, Mr Minister.  Can you clarify to this
House why last year about this time you said everything was ready, and even           ""
!
!&&  
now you say you are not ready? 

The next point I want to raise, is the concern about Mooi River Textiles.  We
read in the press that that town is now becoming a ghost town because of the
closure of Mooi River Textiles.  What is the Minister doing about that?


  o F L
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  One minute left.


  o F 

 
MR J D MKHWANAZI:
  Thank you very much.  The question which has passed
the lips of everybody, is the question of crime.  Perhaps we are concentrating
on the cutting off of arms and other things.


  o F 

 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Other limbs.


  o F \

 
MR J D MKHWANAZI:
  And other limbs of the criminals, but there is another
solution.


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  What, the hanging preacher?


  o F 
 
MR J D MKHWANAZI:
  Which is socio(c)economic, because as long as people are
hungry, there will always be criminals.  Mr Minister, your Department has a
responsibility to improve the economy of this Province in order to avoid crime.


  o F N
 Finally, ayakhala ama(c)Afrika Msholozi, akhala ngokuthi

.  [Africans are

  o F 0
 complaining Msholozi].  They are not yet part of the real economy of this
country, there are still subsistence business people, like subsistence farmers. 
Ake isebenze i(c)Department yakho Msholozi ama(c)Afrika nawo iwenze abe

  o F 
 ngama(c)industrialist singalokhu sizisebenzi.  Ngiyabonga Baba Somlomo.  [Your
Department should work, Msholozi, to ensure that Africans become

  o F |
 industrialists and not just workers.  Thank you Mr Speaker].


  o F @
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Siyabonga kwilunga elihloniphekile.

  [We thank the hon

  o F "
 member].  I will now call upon the hon member Mrs Cronje to address the
House for nine minutes.


  o F 
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Thank you, Chairperson.  Chairperson, I            ""
!
!&&  
want to start by taking a look at the Sharks Board very briefly.  I am very
pleased to see that the hon Minister, in his policy speech, says that the gill nets
are now becoming ecologically unacceptable in terms of international best
practice.  I want to applaud this statement, because that is an absolute fact. 
Some of us have mentioned this from time to time, and we got shouted down
by the likes of my hon colleague Mr Hamilton, but it is a fact.  Gill netting is
totally indiscriminate.  It kills whatever happens to get caught in those nets.


  o F 

 




MR A J HAMILTON:
  Even humans.


  o F 
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Whatever.  Well, humans have a different
breathing system, Mr Hamilton.  So gill netting is totally indiscriminate, and
many species of sharks and other fish are becoming extinct.

I know that the counter argument to this is yes, but what about your tourist
and so on.  I am not glibly dismissing that argument.  I really am not.  I am
acutely aware that anything that puts off tourists is a no(c)no and is really not
good for the Province.  But I think it is also a process of educating your
tourists, because most people from up country, the Vaalies as we used to call
them, of which I used to be one in my childhood.....


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Until you saw the light.


  o F N
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Yes.  ... would get quite happily into their
cars, embark on their annual Christmas holiday, and along the way, I do not
know what the latest figures are, the hon Minister of Transport would be able
to tell me, 160, 260, 300 people would get killed on their way to their holiday. 
One shark attack and the whole country is paralysed.  So it is a kind of fear of
the unknown, whipped up by movies such as Sharks, Jaws, whatever those
things are called.  You know what I am talking about.

In conclusion then, we cannot exhaust the subject, but I am really very pleased
that the Minister acknowledges that we need to look at other systems, because
of the ecological unacceptability of gill netting.

Let me turn to tourism proper.  It is stating the obvious to say that we are all
very pleased with the increase in the Tourism budget.  We are also very pleased           ""
!
!&&  
to see in the Minister's policy speech, that he feels that he is now in a position
to appoint a Tourism Board.  Many speakers have said this, but we believe that
this is something that needs to be done as a matter of urgency.

I also agree completely with the hon Minister that we must take a closer look
at the institutions and the funding of tourism in the Province, and achieve much
greater synergy between the efforts of the various spheres of government and
private sector.  I know that the hon Minister has commissioned a study into
tourism funding in the Province.  I have heard some provisional figures, and I
must point out that they were very provisional figures, but it is staggering the
amount of money that is actually being spent on the marketing of tourism in
this Province, and it is fragmented.  It sits here in a pocket, it sits there in a
pocket.  If we could pool those resources we would actually have a
phenomenal amount of money at our disposal to market this Province in an
integrated manner, because that is what is lacking at the moment.  We have
got government funding, and then all these pockets of money, and other
government money as well, going into the regional councils.

Unfortunately, I think the biggest problem, and I have been quite closely
associated with the tourism industry in the past few years, now the biggest
problem as I see it, and I want to be quite frank here, or one of the biggest
problems, let me qualify it somewhat, is that there are still old vested interests. 
People are keeping things to themselves.  There is mistrust, there is vested
interest, they are thinking of the past when you could not trust government,
and what we are saying to them now as government is please, private sector,
come along.  Let us together as partners market this Province and take this
Province forward.

I was fortunate to attend a workshop on marketing quite recently, organised by
the Tourism Authority, to which people from the private sector were invited,
from the regional councils, the whole lot, all the stakeholders were there.  What
was actually quite noticeable is that from the side of government, we were
standing with our arms wide open and saying, come please, we want you all
to come together, let us do this as one concerted and integrated effort, and you
still came up against their suspicions.  I think some are genuine suspicions
dating back to the bad old days when you could not trust government.  But I
think a lot is actually people being quite mischievous, and there are people who           ""
!
!&&  
are being mischievous and spreading false information.  Why?  Because of
vested interests.

It is sometimes as fundamental as "me, my job, I do not want to lose my job. 
If I give up my little cosy CEO job in whatever I have, and come under the
umbrella of the Tourism Authority, then I personally will lose".  There is no
interest of the Province that is actually being displayed in those kinds of
actions.  I am speaking from a position of a fair amount of exposure to exactly
that kind of attitude.

I really think we need to say to the private sector, and to all those stakeholders,
also in other spheres of government, let us get together in the interest of the
Province.  Let us pool those resources, because if we pooled those resources
we will never again have to stand up in this House and say we do not have
enough money to market tourism, because in actual fact there is enough money
going around, being spent in a fragmented manner.

I also wanted to briefly look at the issue of crime and tourism.  The hon Mr
MacKenzie to a certain extent stole my thunder this morning with his
interpellation, and said some of the things that I would have said.  


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Two minutes.


  o F N
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Sorry, how many?


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Two minutes left.


  o F 
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Thanks.  But as I said this morning, he is
quite correct that crime and tourism just do not go together.  They are not
partners.  Tourism is not a partner in crime.  We should learn from countries
like Malaysia, Mauritius, and I can mention other countries where, if you go to
those countries as a tourist, you are made to feel so special, so welcome and
you actually also are completely safe.  Well, when I say completely, that may
be a slight overstatement, but you are safe.  As I said this morning, this will
really come once there is a true understanding, and once we have transformed
the industry to include all sectors of our society, because as long as tourism is
seen as an elitist activity, open to and conducted by only a few elitist tour           ""
!
!&&  
operators, our local people and local communities will have this negative
attitude that, "It has nothing to do with me".  The minute that you involve
people, that you transform the tourist industry, as we are supposed to be doing
in this Province, and you bring in emerging entrepreneurs, you bring in your
SMMEs, you give people a stake in it, you make people feel part of it, and not
only f))l part of it, b) part of it, then people are saying, "We are now defending
something that belongs to us, and now we will defend it".  But people will not,
and this is human nature and there is nothing peculiar about this country as far
as that is concerned, people will not defend something if it has nothing to do
with them, if it is out there, if it is an elitist activity.  But once it is mine, once
it is my B&B, once it is my taxi that is bringing tourists to wherever, then I will
defend it with all my might and the communities will then ensure that tourists
are made welcome and that the tourist come to a crime(c)free environment.


  o F \

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  The hon member's time is up.


  o F  

 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  So we have got to look at the causes and
not only treat the symptoms.  Thank you, Chairperson.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 


THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mrs Cronje.  I now wish to call upon the hon
member Mr Mzobe who will speak for eight minutes.


  o F 0
 
MR M R MZOBE:
  Mr Chairman, members of the Legislature.  It is common
knowledge that the government of the day throughout the world is responsible
for the sound, reliable and respected state of the economy, that can be
respected by foreign investors.

For the country to be economically prosperous, it must rid itself of crime,
lawlessness and violence.  The Government must espouse the socio(c)economic,
and political policies that are conducive for a sound and stable economy, that
is able to rid itself of unemployment, hence ridding itself of crime which
emanates from unemployment.

It is the Government's duty to encourage the farmers to produce more food,
not only to support the towns, but to export its produce to the countries of the           ""
!
!&&  
international community, hence boosting the country's economy.  These
endeavours will succeed if, and only when the Government of the day ensures
that the human rights of workers are not violated.  In the same vein, the
Government must make sure that the rights of employers are not infringed.  It
makes it unequivocally certain that there is co(c)existence between the employer
and the employee in order that the country's economy can prosper.

One of the major factors for economic growth is tourism.  For this sector to
boost the state of the economy, the Government must identify all the
prospective tourist sites throughout the length and breadth of our Province. 
The Government, together with its citizens must liaise with the tribal authorities
throughout the Province with the view of identifying the aforementioned sites
in order that each and every citizen of the country can participate in the
development of the country's economy.

For this sector to be viable, the Government must intensify the ways and
means of protecting the tourists.  The kind of criminality that is prevalent in our
country has scared many tourists away because they are butchered when they
come to our country.

It is the duty and the competence of the Government of the day to curtail the
powers that are vested in trade unions.  Constant picketing, strikes, boycotts
and stay(c)aways have not only destroyed the country's economy, but it has
virtually scared off the foreign investors.  

Mr Chairman, the Government of National Unity has introduced good economic
policies which are accepted by all parties in Parliament.  Policies such as GEAR
cannot be implemented.  The Government of the day is held to ransom by its
own ally, COSATU.  Tragically, the Government of the day cannot reprimand
or curtail the powers that COSATU wields because it is dependent on its vote. 
It looks as though the Government is interested in the political power rather
than the welfare of its electorate.

Mr Chairman, and hon members of the Legislature, it is extremely pathetic and
sad that human nature tends to forget, quite easily.  I would therefore like to
remind your hon House that history repeats itself.
            ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
MR M R MZOBE:
  The most outrageous statement that was made by Mrs
Madikizela(c)Mandela to the effect that farmers assassinate one another came as
no surprise to many South Africans, like myself.


  o F L
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  One and a half minutes.


  o F 
 
MR M R MZOBE:
  It must be recalled that she once declared that the liberation
struggle would be won through necklacing.


  o F z

 
AN HON MEMBER:
  And a box of matches.


  o F >

 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
MR M R MZOBE:
  Necklacing is the most gruesome fashion of killing people in
which case people are burnt alive, and most unfortunately she was not
reprimanded by her party.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F N
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  One minute left.


  o F 
 
MR M R MZOBE:
  How on earth can one expect our economy to grow when
the most senior members of the ANC led Government speak so glibly when the
lives of the people who are at the helm of our ailing economy are at stake, I
ask, Mr Chairman?  

I would like to congratulate the hon the Minister who has shown in no
uncertain terms that we are moving away from the philosophy that was
pronounced by one ...


  o F -
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  The hon member's time is up.


  o F 
 
MR M R MZOBE:
  No notice, Mr Chairman?            ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  I did give notice to the hon member.  I initially said one
and a half minutes.  I then said one minute.  The member was too involved in
his speech and probably did not hear what I was saying.  Next on the list is the
hon member Mr Edwards who will speak for seven minutes.


  o F j
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Do not talk about Winnie.


  o F .
 
MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):
  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I think the hon Minister
must be congratulated on his policy speech.  It was positive and full of good
intention.  But the Minister, whoever succeeds him, will have a difficult task in
achieving the Government's hopeful wish of high economic growth, given the
current state of our economy, and the poor growth performance over the past
four years.

The South African ANC Government, after predicting an economic growth rate
of some 3% for the current year, has seen a dramatic downturn in the
economy, with local and foreign investor confidence at its lowest for decades,
and a negative growth for 1998/1999 is the likely final result.  For 1999/2000
fiscal year, a 1,8% growth is projected, but economists outside government
circles put this at about 0,8%.

Other negative aspects resulting from the ANC/COSATU Communist Party
policies over the past five years are; State debt has reached its highest level in
history, now being 57,7% of GDP, with interest on State debts amounting to
22% of each Rand.  Government debt has catapulted from R192 billion in
March 1994 to R377 billion in February this year, an increase of 96%. 
Contrary to the myths of the ANC and the DP propaganda, by the admission of
Mr Trevor Manuel himself regarding massive foreign debt inherited from the
previous Government, it is only some R270 million, not billion and there is no
justification or wisdom to request foreign creditors to write this off.  He is a
wise man.

A second big negative is the frightening loss of jobs in South Africa since the
1994 election.  The formal agricultural sector has seen 1,421 million jobs in
1994 decline by 784 000, more than half in four disastrous years for farm
workers and their families.  In the formal sector non(c)agricultural, 734 000 jobs
have been lost, and in the last year 311 000 alone in excess of 850 a day.            ""
!
!&&  
Can the ANC/COSATU/SACP alliance deny their involvement or culpability in
enforcing socialist and destructive labour policies on the people and our
economy?

The Government set as one of the key priorities in its failed RDP, as the
creation of permanent jobs.  In the first year of the programme, R5 billion was
budgeted.  Of this some R2 billion only was spent, some to good effect in
creating new opportunities and infrastructure at an astronomically high
administration cost of R1,2 billion.  The programme then failed and so too has
GEAR.

We in these benches do not applaud the failure of well intentioned initiatives,
but they were and trust that after the coming elections a new government will
re(c)examine priorities and that people put them first and not the party.

Here in the Province the RDP has also had its highs and lows.  One of the lows
has been the RDP Discretionary Fund.  Of an amount of R31 million allocated,
it is clear no proper procedures have been put in place for administering the
projects undertaken.

Mr Chairman, we still await a full report back on projects undertaken, but first
reports released give considerable cause for alarm.  In the 1995/1996 allocation
of some R770 000, the Auditor(c)General has already reported on the lack of
proper procedures and documentation.  Of the R770 000 a firm of auditors
appointed to report on the above close out of projects which were beading,
gardening, candle making, brick making, sewing projects, poultry and
boreholes, some 90 projects in all, cases totalling an amount of R225 000 have
been handed over to SA Police Services for investigation.

The cost of the private auditors who admit their costs are very high in relation
to the value of funds awarded to projects, they are disgracefully high, Mr
Chairman, total R442 000 against a total of project expenditure of R770 000. 
It does not make sense.  This in itself needs investigation.  This expenditure
incurred by the Director(c)General, it appears was without control in an attempt
to hide his staff's incompetence, and it cannot be accepted.

I come on to KwaZulu Transport Service, and it has been mentioned here.  The            ""
!
!&&  
commuter bus operation owned by the Province has over many years come
under enormous pressure and criticism.

At the end of June 1996 KZT reflected a loss for the year of some R18,7
million, and accumulated losses of nearly R80 million.  This trend continued in
1997 and 1998, in spite of every effort by the Department and the Minister to
restructure and achieve a turnaround.

The budget this year provides an amount of R10 million as a subsidy to KZT. 
This was the same as in the previous year, and during the year an amount of
R20 million had to be provided to avoid the insolvency of the company.  After
being a most successful operation some 10 years ago, events simply caught up
with KZT.

The major fact in failure was the inability of the National Department of
Transport to institute a realistic commuter transport subsidy system.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Two minutes left.


  o F 
 
MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):
  In the face of increasing demands of labour
employed, a major change in transport patterns with minibus taxis taking the
shorter routes, increasing costs of operation and vehicle purchase and
maintenance, a major loss of revenue was certain.

The Department of Transport took four years to wake up to the realities of the
day, but too late for many operators.  Bus operators in Gauteng and
Mpumalanga, in the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu(c)Natal have all failed financially. 
The subsidy of passengers based on passengers carried was just not workable,
but Central Government ended with a surplus in the budget subsidy in 1997 of
some R650 million, while the operators went down the drain.

At last the tender system has been accepted, and we have heard that today,
and the restructuring is ahead of us, but good financial management will be
necessary to ensure the Province is not put at further risk or bail out in the
future.

As far as the budget goes, the allocation of R108 million is welcome, but the            ""
!
!&&  
increase in real terms is still below the budget of 1997/1998, and below the
needs to promote our economy.

The conditional grant of R4,39 million to tourism is a step in the right direction,
but nowhere near enough to provide for optimum development of the enormous
potential development in our Province.

Mr Chairman, to achieve that potential, it is imperative that the private sector
be brought on board to drive the tourism initiative.  The hon Mrs Cronje
happened to mention earlier that private initiative was not the way, but two
years ago some R4 million a year was got in bed levies.  They boycotted that
now, because of the way the tourism is being run in this Province, and we need
the private sector to come on board.  It is proven government does not have
the capacity to create wealth and employment, and is expenditure driven.

Mr Minister, if you do not promote this strategy, tourism in our Province will
just never work properly.  With that, we reluctantly support this budget.


  o F 
 


THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr Edwards.  Can we hear Mrs Cronje.


  o F 
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Mr Chairman, I refer to Rule 74(1).  Could
I just give an explanation?  I think either the hon Mr Edwards misunderstood
what I was saying, or he then for whatever reason is deliberately
misrepresenting what I said.  I did not say that private sector did not have a
place, I said as Government we are having our arms wide open inviting private
sector to come in as partners so that we work together with private sector.  I
just want to make that quite clear, and I think everybody in the House
understood that, except it seems the hon Mr Edwards.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mrs Cronje.  I think your explanation has been
heard.  I now call upon the hon member Mr Mtetwa who will speak for 10
minutes.


  o F "
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F -
 
MR S N MTETWA:
  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Let me start by congratulating
the Minister and his staff, because without them we would not have been in           ""
!
!&&  
a position to produce the product that he has just reported on.

You know, for me to get an update on the airport moving to La Mercy and a
report about the waterfront and the steps that the Minister is going to take was
a wonder.  It shows that this Department, or the leader of the Department does
have a vision.

He also spoke about a vision for the year 2020 of investing R20 billion.  He
spoke about R50 billion as an estimate in counter trade.  I said to myself yes,
this Department has a vision.  This is the kind of work that we expect from the
people, especially the elected people, and the people who are getting taxpayers
earnings.

I also noted, Mr Chairperson, that when the Minister was delivering this
speech, that he does not only have a vision at the provincial level.  He works
with the national, he also works with the local people and local government. 
Not only with government, but also the private sector, and private companies.

That then brings me to the question that has concerned me of saying that it is
only this Department that is always getting less money when it comes to votes. 
Out of the nine votes, this one got the least, but when they provide us with

  o F 
 reports, they do not talk of the millions they are getting.  

Mhlonishwa Maria,
they talk of billions, because they work with national, with local, with regional
councils and with the private sector.  That is a wonder.

The other matter that I noticed was that the Minister was thankful for the
increase in his budget.  He did not do as the others did, who kept on crying and
crying.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F ^
 
MR S N MTETWA:
  He accepts what he has got and works within it.  I learnt
from his report that an economic growth plan goes together with a
transformation plan.  He linked it.  When you look at the transformation of KFC,
you do not only see that the name of KFC has been changed, but when we look
at it inside, you will then find transformation.  If you also look at REF, you find
transformation, not to the name.  We are very happy and we have taken note           ""
!
!&&  
of that.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
MR S N MTETWA:
  I intend now to support what my colleague Mike
Mabuyakhulu said.


  o F .
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 

 
MR S N MTETWA:
  He said people have eyes to see, and people have ears to
hear, and people have minds to think, and people at last will talk.  Once the
people have spoken, that will be the end of the story.  That is important, I
support him on it.


  o F \

 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F  

 
MR S N MTETWA:
  I also heard my neighbour, Mhlonishwa Dingila when he
spoke about the area of Ndwedwe.  


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER 


  o F 
 
MR S N MTETWA:
  I wonder whether the hon Dingila realises that he is not
elected to represent Ndwedwe, but he represents the whole of KwaZulu(c)Natal. 
He even slipped to see Ilembe Regional Council.  Montebello is there (c) area of
Ndwedwe.  I think he was looking at his neighbour only.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
MR S N MTETWA:
  Well, let me change a bit.  

Uyabona ngo(c)1984 kuyaphezulu kuleSifundazwe saKwaZulu(c)Natali
wawucabanga engazathi uya ko(c)1985/86 kuyabhujwa, kuyasha abantu
ababenotho balahlekelwa, ababengenalutho abazange balithole ithuba lokuthi
babenotho.

Kodwa siyabonga ukuthi i(c)Department kulezinsuku ikhuluma ukuthi akusikhona
kuphela ukuthi sizibhekela thina nomakhelwane bethu, kodwa nalabo           ""
!
!&&  
osomabhizinisi abancane abalahlekelwa bazosizakala kanjani.

Kukhulunywa namahlanje ukuthi bazosizakala kanjani.  We are very happy
about that Minister.  Kulokhu siku(c)1999 baHlonishwa, we have begun with our
election campaign.  I know ukuthi ukukhuluma kwethu akuzukufana nokwenza
kodwa ngiyafisa ukusho ukuthi kimina bekufanele sithi umnotho lona
esikhuluma ngawo nokukhula kwawo kunento ephambana nayo.  Leyonto
ukulwa nodlame angeke ngikhulume ngiqede ngingakhulumanga ngokuthi ukuba

  o F 

 ngempela besilithanda izwe lakithi, neSifundazwe sakithi... 




  o F 
 
TRANSLATION:  
You see in 1984 and beyond, towards 1985/86, it was as
though there was going to be total destruction in this Province of
KwaZulu-Natal.  Things were in flames.  People who had anything lost it. 
Those who had nothing did not get a chance to acquire anything.

But we are grateful that the Department, these days, is saying we are not only
going to take care of ourselves and our neighbours, but it is looking at how
small businesses who lost out will benefit.

Today we are discussing how they will benefit.  Since we started in 1999, hon
members, we began with our election campaigns.  I know that what we say
will not exactly match our actions.  But, I wish to say that there is something
contrary to the economy and its growth and that is violence.  I will not
conclude my speech without saying that if we truly love our country and our
Province...  T/E


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Imizuzu emibili esele lunga elihloniphekile. [Hon member,

  o F 
 there are two minutes left].


  o F 
 
MR S N MTETWA:
  Awu!  Bekuzofanele sonke siphume sithi siyokhankasa
ngokuthula ngoba ngokwenze njalo siyobe sikhombisa inhloso yokunyuka
komnotho weSifunda sakithi.  Ngokunyuka kwawo kusizakala abantu bakithi.

Bonkeke bazokhankasa ngokuthula bayobe bekhomba uthando kubantu,
nokuthuthuka kwesizwe sabo abakusona.  Abantu ilesosikhathi bezobona
khona, bezolalela khona, bezocabanga khona, ekugcineni bese bekhuluma.
           ""
!
!&&  ԌOkokugcina Sihlalo, angibonge ukuthi kuleliminithi elisele, sengiqedile
ukukhuluma.


  o F 
 
TRANSLATION:  
Oh! We will all go out and campaign peacefully because by so
doing, we will be demonstrating our objective for economic growth.  Growth
will benefit our people.

All those who will campaign peacefully will be demonstrating love for the
people and for a peaceful nation that they too are a part of.  That will be the
time when people will see, when they will listen, when they will think and
ultimately speak.

Lastly, Chairperson, let me say thank you because in this last minute, I have
concluded my speech.  T/E


  o F >

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Siyabonga kwilunga elihloniphekile.  Ekugcineni sizocela
uNgqongqoshe woMnyango kweZomnotho nezokuNgcebeleka aphendule

  o F 
 ezinkulumeni esezenziwe kuleNdlu.

  [We thank the hon member.  In the end,
we will ask the Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism to respond to

  o F 
 speeches that have been made in this House].


  o F 
 
MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):
  Thank you,
Chairperson.  I will indeed as always, not go into the details of what the
individual members of the House have said.  They have mentioned a number of
things, some economical, some political and some needing a lot of debate.  It
will take me a long time to deal with all of that.  I merely appreciate the manner
in which the members have debated my vote.  I listened very attentively when
the hon member Mr Hamilton was reading a long section, describing the Port
of Durban which indicated that we have the potential for the economy.  Long
before that was written, King Shaka was there and indeed saw that port as an
important economic activity and actually carried out a lot of activities.  That is
history.


  o F "
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION.


  o F -
 
MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):
  That is history. 
My colleague the hon member Aulsebrook is not here, who failed to appreciate          ""
!
!&&  
the difference between the speech that was read last year and this one.  I
thought he was always alert. [LAUGHTER]  I do not have the time to show him
the lines, but nevertheless, I think it was quite interesting to listen to him.

It is correct what the hon Mr Mabuyakhulu was saying, that for this
Department really to do more than what it has done, it needs more resources. 

  o F .
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 

 
MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):
  If you talk about
economic growth, solving poverty, you have to attend to this Department, and
I hope that this Legislature one day will see this.  Because if you want finances
you cannot spend all the time.  You have got to invest so that my hon
colleague can balance his budget.  So it is correct to say that you need more
of this.

There were a number of other issues that were raised by a number of members. 
I really appreciated this.  Some of these issues were almost like questions,
some of them rhetorical questions, but it is important to clarify to our colleague
who is not present, hon Nel, that ...


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F N
 
MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):
  Has he crossed
over.  [LAUGHTER]  That the issue of the KZT is actually being resolved.  We
are taking a risk this time, more confidently than any other time, but we are
solving this problem once and for all.  I think he should be confident that we are
doing the right thing this time.


  o F 
 

Well, I thought hon Mr Dingila was saying Ndwedwe is about to join me in my
organisation rather than the other way around.  [LAUGHTER]

Well, hon Mr Mkhwanazi, about the cry of whether there are Africans in the
economy.  It is an important issue that he has raised and which is being
discussed, particularly by the black emerging business people.  The issue of
black empowerment comes into this.  I have interacted a lot with that sector
as a result of my responsibility and discussed many issues, but it would take          ""
!
!&&  
a lot of time to deal with that.  But I think it is important also just to respond
to him, as he walks in, on some of the questions he raised.

The issue of the Rehabilitation Fund and the delays; we have already in fact
worked on the regulations.  They have already been sent to the Secretary of
this Legislature so that they will be considered and finalised.  We have already
received nominations for the Board and we will certainly be moving very quickly
to deal with that.

I think it is just important to make the point here, which I always make, and
that is that there is something in government that is called bureaucracy, and
bureaucracy is bureaucracy.  You cannot change it, even if you wanted to. 
Because of bureaucracy, things do not move as fast as you want in
government, even if you wanted.  I have always said, if I had my way, I would
have changed government overnight and made it something else, but there is
bureaucracy.  As we legislate, as we create checks and balances, we are
actually enriching and trying to ensure that this bureaucracy moves in a
particular way.  I think it is going to take a long time to change that.  As you
know, if you deal with the officials, when you say, "Look, this is what has to
happen", and you can take your political decisions, at the end they will say,
"Sorry, Mr Minister, the system does not work that way.  This is how the
system works".

You have got to deal with the question of accountability, and not messing
things up.  That is the reason why there has been a delay.  We had to do that. 
Besides that, and besides government, people who were supposed to handle
this had their own misgivings handling that fund, and they were concerned
about some participants.  So we had to negotiate so that by the time we say
it operates, it was on the safer ground where everybody would be happy.  But
nevertheless, I think we are now there home and dry.

Well, Chairperson, I must say once again, this has been a very lovely
discussion.  Even the issues that were raised, we raised in a very constructive
manner, and I appreciate that.  As you know, this debate is indeed the
culmination of a number of debates that took place between the Portfolio
Committee of the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism and the Finance
Committee.  Members discussed various issues, and therefore the debates as          ""
!
!&&  
it were here, were in a sense a culmination of those discussions.  I appreciate
the participation from those levels, and the contributions that have been made.

There are a few other points, that were made by the speakers and have been
taken seriously.  Some of these which have been central in the debates today. 
People have emphasised very strongly that in all the economic sectors, what
is needed the most, is economic growth and indeed that the potential in this
Province is there.  We just need to do our things in a better way.

Also, that there is a necessity for flexibility in the labour market.  These are the
issues that some of the members have raised.  The importance of the SMMEs
in terms of creation of jobs has been emphasised and we totally agree with
that.  There have been a lot of points raised in terms of how do all the sectors
co(c)operate, including a point that was made that this Department ought to in
fact be more alert about activities undertaken by other line departments in
terms of co(c)ordinating.  We could go a long way if we could do that, and if that
could be accepted.

The issues have been raised about the importance and the role that has been
played by both our major ports, Durban and Richards Bay and that we need to
balance our interests on these two in terms of promoting them.  We cannot
choose one at the expense of the other.

I was very happy to hear the kind of sentiments expressed for the need of cooperation between the provincial, national and local governments in terms of
trying to promote our economic growth.  We can only succeed if we work in
that manner.  I must thank all the members for the manner in which they have
debated this vote, and it makes me indeed feel very happy that we all
understand that even though we might have different views and approaches,
the fact of the matter is that we are dealing with the economy and that we all
have to make a contribution towards making it a success.

Therefore, Mr Chairperson, with those words, I thank the members and thank
them for supporting my vote.  I do believe that when we discuss it next year,
we would be far advanced, given the fact that there will be specific changes
in the next few months and in time to come.  Thank you very much. 
           ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, hon Minister.  That brings us to the end of
the debate on vote 4, that is Economic Affairs and Tourism.  I will now call
upon the Sergeant at Arms to invite the Speaker back to his Chair.


  o F 
 m
 
THE BUSINESS OF THE COMMITTEE SUSPENDED AT 18:44
|
 THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE RESUMED AT 18:45


  o F .
 

THE SPEAKER:
  I will now give this opportunity to the Chairperson to give a
report before the House.  Thank you.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Mr Speaker, the Committee of Supply has met, and has
not finished its work.  I wish to request leave to sit again on the next sitting
day of this House.


  o F \

 
THE SPEAKER:
  Request granted.  We have come to the end of our business
of today.  Are there any announcements before we close?


  o F 
 
INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and

  o F 
 Minister of Safety and Security):
  Mr Speaker, and the hon House, nothing has
been left by the hon Premier in the form of announcements.  Thank you.


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Therefore the House adjourns till 14:00 tomorrow.


  o F N
 q

 

HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 18:47 UNTIL

ă

  o F 0
 

 

14:00 ON THURSDAY, 25 MARCH 1999

ă
           ""
!
!&&  

  o F   
 
 @@ ""
 		

 
DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
ă

  o F  
 K

	 
KWAZULU(c)NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

ă


  o F 
 u

 
SIXTH SESSION


THIRD SITTING (c) SEVENTH SITTING DAY
	
 THURSDAY, 25 MARCH 1999

THE HOUSE MET AT 14:06 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER,
PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE

  o F 

 PRAYER.



  o F 	
 
THE SPEAKER:
  


  o F z

 2. X""
 OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS"


  o F >

 3. X""
 ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION"


  o F 
 4. X""
 ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER"


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Ngifisa ukusho ukuthi isicelo soMnyango weZempilo ukuba
kubekwe lokhu enikubona ngaphakathi ngikuvume ngoba ngenzela ukuba
amalunga akuqonde ukuthi ingculazi ingahle ingene nakuleNdlu uqobo.

Ngakhoke kusemqoka ukuba sizikhumbuze ngokuba khona kwalezimpawu. 
Ngiyathokoza.


  o F 
 
TRANSLATION:  
I wish to say that I accepted the placement of what is before
you, at the request of the Department of Health, so that members can
understand that AIDS can also be in this very House.  Therefore, it is important
for us to remind ourselves of these signs.  I am pleased.  T/E


  o F ^
 



5. X""
 ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORTS BY THE PREMIER"

Unfortunately the Premier is not in.  We will continue.


  o F -
 6. X""
 TABLING OF REPORTS AND/OR PAPERS"
   
        ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):
  Mr Speaker, I would like to table a
report of the Department of Transport for the Portfolio Committee and the
members.


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Let us move on.


  o F L
 7. X""
 NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS "

Hon members Mrs Cronje.


  o F 
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice
that I shall move on the next sitting day of this House as follows:

 X""
 Noting:"

 X""
 that the DP's only black MP, Dr Bukelwa Mbulawa, has joined the
ANC;"

 X""
 further Noting her telling comments that the DP is opposed to
transformation and change; and"

 X""
 that in the ANC there is a meaningful place for all South Africans,
regardless of colour, income, gender or status."

 X""
 This House therefore, believing that the DP has become a dumping
ground for ex(c)NATS and a homeland for whites yearning for the past;"

 X""
 Resolves:"

 X""
 to congratulate Dr Mbulawa on her wise decision and to warmly
welcome her into the ANC."

Thank you, Mr Speaker.


  o F -
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!  INTERJECTIONS.


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Order please!  Order!  Hon member Mr Morar.            ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
MR R MORAR:
  Mr Speaker, I give notice on the next sitting day of this House
I shall move:

 X""
 That the New National Party and the Indian community notes with
disgust and holds in contempt the editorial in the IFP(c)owned ILANGA
Newspaper; that Indians were fuelling violence and hatred amongst
blacks, and the call for a new Amin to be born to take care of the
peace loving Indians in this Province; and"

 X""
 that this House calls on the IFP to fire their editor and state publicly if
the intentions of their mouth piece (c)  the ILANGA is to start another
black on Indian uprising, similar to 1949."

I move.


  o F >

 


MRS E E N KANKOSI(c)SHANDU: (Minister of Education and Culture):
  On a point
of order.


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Hon Minister.


  o F 
 
MRS E E N KANKOSI(c)SHANDU: (Minister of Education and Culture):
  On a point
of order, Mr Speaker.  I want to know if it is parliamentary for the hon member
to complete his sentence by saying if the IFP is willing to start another violence
against the Indians, insinuating that the IFP has in the past started violence
against the Indians.  I ask therefore, Mr Speaker, that you rule that the hon
member withdraws that statement.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Hon member Mr Morar.


  o F ^
 
MR R MORAR:
  Mr Speaker, I will go through the section that I have read
again.  I very distinctly said that this House calls on the IFP to immediately fire
the editor, and to state publicly if the intentions of their newspaper is to start
another black on Indian uprising, similar to 1949.


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Thank you.    	        ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
THE SPEAKER:
  Hon Minister.


  o F 
 
MRS E E N KANKOSI(c)SHANDU: (Minister of Education and Culture):
  Mr
Speaker, sir, hon members, the insinuation is that the IFP and the IFP mouth
piece.


  o F L
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION


  o F 

 
MRS E E N KANKOSI(c)SHANDU: (Minister of Education and Culture):
  I would
like hon members to shut up because I am speaking.  [LAUGHTER]


  o F 	
 
MR J C MATTHEE:
  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.


  o F z

 
THE SPEAKER:
  Order please!  Order! Order!


  o F >

 
MR J C MATTHEE:
  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Hon member, please take your seat until the hon member is
finished with his point of order.  Then I will give you the time.


  o F 
 
MR J C MATTHEE:
  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I am
following the Rules of this House, and I stand up on a point of order.


  o F N
 
MRS E E N KANKOSI(c)SHANDU: (Minister of Education and Culture):
  Mr
Speaker, what I want to ...


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Order please!  Order!  I am the only one who will say sit down. 
I will ask the hon member to take his seat until the hon Minister is finished with
her point of order.


  o F @
 
MRS E E N KANKOSI(c)SHANDU: (Minister of Education and Culture):
  Mr
Speaker, I am asking that you rule that the insinuation is the IFP and/or the IFP
mouth piece, as he was referring to what he earlier called the IFP mouth piece,
therefore it is the IFP mouth piece that is aiming to starting violence against the
Indian community.   
       ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Hon member Mr Matthee.


  o F 
 
MR J C MATTHEE:
  Mr Speaker, the hon the Minister of Education told hon
members to shut up.  Sir, that I believe is totally unparliamentary, and I ask the
hon Minister to withdraw those words.


  o F 

 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
MR A RAJBANSI:
  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.


  o F 

 
THE SPEAKER:
  Order!  Order!  Order please!  I am still dealing with that.  I will
ask hon member Mr Morar to withdraw that statement.


  o F >

 
MR V A VOLKER:
  Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order.  It is not basically my
intention to query your ruling, but the request by the Minister is based on what
she believes is an insinuation.  It is not based on fact, it is not based on what
the hon member Mr Morar read in his motion.  It is based on an insinuation
which she believes is an insinuation.  I believe that it would be wrong for you
as Speaker to base a ruling on what the Minister believes to be an insinuation
and not to be fact.


  o F N
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):
  Mr Speaker, could I raise a further point of
order?


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Yes.


  o F |
 
MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):
  Mr Speaker, with regard to that hon member's
motion, we in this party would agree that it was a disgusting editorial and will
be dealt with.  But, Mr Speaker, there is a clear difference between being the
shareholders who own a newspaper and what is written ...


  o F -
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Point of order, Mr Speaker.  Point of order.
   
        ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):
  Can I finish my point of order?


  o F 
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  I will read the Rules to you and to the hon
Speaker.


  o F .
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Let the member finish his point of order please.


  o F 

 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  At the point of order.


  o F 	
 
MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):
  Mr Speaker, I will come to the point ...


  o F z

 
THE SPEAKER:
  I will ask the hon member to take her seat until the hon
member is through with his point of order, then I will rule whether it is a point
of order or not.


  o F 
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Mr Speaker, I am calling him to order.  May
I read the Rules to you, Mr Speaker, with respect?  Our Rules state clearly, Rule
75, Points of order:

 X""
 When a point of order is raised, the member called to order shall
resume his or her seat, and after the point of order has been stated to
the presiding officer by the member raising it, the presiding officer
shall give his or her ruling..."

I am calling the hon Mr Tarr to order.  Therefore in terms of our Rules he must
resume his seat.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F ^
 
MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Mr Speaker, my point of order is that what
the hon Mr Tarr is raising is not a point of order by any stretch of imagination,
it is putting forward an argument against a motion.


  o F -
 
MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):
  Mr Speaker, I will then stick to the point and
raise the point of order.  Mr Speaker, I would like you to examine that motion   
       ""
!
!&&  
in your office between now and tomorrow, and I believe that the insinuation of
that motion against the IFP is such that that motion should be struck from the
record.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F L
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Well, what I will do, I will not give a ruling now, but I will take
the matter and consider it after the session.  Thank you.


  o F 

 
MR J C MATTHEE:
  Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order.


  o F 	
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Yes, Mr Matthee.


  o F z

 
MR J C MATTHEE:
  Mr Speaker, I believe you have not dealt with the point of
order I raised earlier, and that is the unparliamentary language which the hon
the Minister of Education used in this House.  That is for members to shut up,
and I believe the hon the Minister should withdraw those words.  Thank you.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  In terms of Rule 70 of the Rules of Procedure, I would like to
read this to members.

 X""
 No Member shall use offensive or unbecoming language."


  o F 
 

Therefore I will ask the hon Minister to withdraw her words.


  o F 
 
MRS E E N KANKOSI(c)SHANDU: (Minister of Education and Culture):
  The hon
Speaker, I want to withdraw, but ...


  o F |
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F @
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Shut up.


  o F -
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Order please!  Order!


  o F 
 
MRS E E N KANKOSI(c)SHANDU: (Minister of Education and Culture):
  Shut up.    
        ""
!
!&&  
I would like to find out whether the rules specify which words are
unparliamentary and which words specifically are unbecoming language
because when one uses the word "shut up" it is equivalent to "keep quiet".


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F L
 
MRS E E N KANKOSI(c)SHANDU: (Minister of Education and Culture):
  Therefore
in terms of English, shutting up means keep quiet and therefore I would like to

  o F 

 know 

if that is specifically explained in the rules as unparliamentary.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!  INTERJECTION.


  o F 

 
THE SPEAKER:
  Order please!  Order! Order!  I will consider the request by the
hon Minister because since the Rules are not specific, and the word
"unbecoming" is so wide one can interpret it widely.  I will consider her request
and try to deal with it.  Thank you.


  o F 
 


THE SPEAKER:
  Hon Mr Rajbansi.


  o F 
 
MR A RAJBANSI:
  Before I move my very short motion, you have given a ruling
on my request for a debate on a matter of public importance and you have
given your reasons.  I accept your ruling, except that I want to request is that
you reconsider this in the light of the fact that that editor is reported to have
stated in today's paper ...


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  I will ask the hon member, this is now the time for motions and
Bills.


  o F 
 
MR A RAJBANSI:
  Ja, but it is a motion.


  o F |
 
THE SPEAKER:
  I will ask the hon member to put his motion.  Thank you.


  o F @
 
MR A RAJBANSI:
  Right, I hope that my motion, I want to make it very clear,
I do not offend the IFP and I think some of the greatest praises on the Indian
community was heaped by Dr Mandela ...


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Hon member must read his motion, not debate the matter.    
        ""
!
!&&  
Thank you.


  o F 
 
MR A RAJBANSI:
  Ja.  I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting
day of the hon House as follows:

 X""
 that this House condemns the racist attack on the peace loving Indian
Community in South Africa in the editorial of the ILANGA Newspaper
and records the deep appreciation on the contribution of the Indian
Community as expressed by the hon State President and the hon
leader of the IFP, Dr M G Buthelezi from time to time."


  o F 	
 


MR M R MZOBE:
  Mr Speaker.


  o F z

 
THE SPEAKER:
  Order!  Hon member Mr Mzobe.


  o F >

 
MR M R MZOBE:
  I would like to find out whether the hon member or members
who have suggested that, although I deplore what was in the editorial, but it
appals me that the member is only referring to the Indian community, it was the
white and the Indian community ...


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:  
INTERJECTIONS.



  o F l
 THE SPEAKER:
  Order! Order! Order! Order!


  o F 0
 


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):
  Point of order, Mr Speaker.


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Order, Mr Mzobe.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F |
 
MR M R MZOBE:
  It was not only the Indian community.


  o F @
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Mr Mzobe, please take your seat.


  o F -
 
MR M R MZOBE:
  Thank you.


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Thank you.  That is not a point of order.           ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):
  Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order.  Mr Mzobe
was making a speech and I think you are quite right to ask him to take his seat. 
But really, this is nonsense.


  o F 
 
MR A RAJBANSI:
  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

 X""
 Holds the leader of the Newspaper concerned responsible for such an
act that can be committed by a madman, and therefore calls upon the
owners of the of the newspaper concerned to sack not only the editor
of the newspaper, but also its Managing Director, Mr Arthur
Konigkramer, whose office is situated in the same premises housing
the ILANGA Newspaper."

Having recorded that the Minority Front, praise to the Almighty and to ancestral
spirits to prevent the rebirth of the soul of Idi Admin in South Africa and having
also recorded that the Minority Front is contemplating laying criminal charges
against the editorial of the newspaper for racial incitement.

Thank you.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F l
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Hon member Mr Haygarth.


  o F 0
 
MR G HAYGARTH:
  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I give notice that I
will move the following motion on the next sitting day of the House:

 X""
 noting the inability of the hon Premier to answer the question
concerning the estimated cost of his proposed Commission of Inquiry
as gazetted, this House expresses its concern that matters are again
apparently being initiated without due regard to the likely expenditure
to be incurred."

I thank you.


  o F -
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!
           ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Hon member Mr Ngidi.


  o F 
 
MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):
  Mr Speaker, I give notice that I shall move on the
next sitting day of this House as follows, that:

 X""
 noting the crossing over of Mr McKenzie and Mr Gogotya, both from
the New National Party and Mr Dyani from the PAC, to the ANC;"

 X""
 This House welcomes their wise decision to join up with the forces of
transformation and a better life in this country."

I thank you.


  o F z

 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F >

 
THE SPEAKER:
  Hon member Mr Burrows.  Order! Order!  Mr Burrows.


  o F 
 
MR R M BURROWS:
  Mr Speaker, I thought the first motion was talking about
a dumping ground for NATS, but nevertheless.  Mr Speaker, on the next sitting
day I will move as follows:

 X""
 for a call on this House to unanimously and unreservedly condemn any
racial attack that labels any group; be it Indians, whites, blacks, Zulus,
Afrikaners or any other racial, cultural, linguistic or religious group as
guilty of any attack of particular racial tendency or guilt which may or
may not be ascribed to the actions of individuals alone."


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Any other motion?  Mr Waugh.


  o F 
 
MR J C N WAUGH:
  Mr Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day I will
move:

 X""
 this House notes with concern the highly racial statements made in
the Editorial of the ILANGA Newspaper, the official mouth piece of the
IFP,on 24 March 1999."

           ""
!
!&&  Ԍ X""
 Resolves that:"

 X""
 because of the effect statements like these will have on the volatile
situation in our Province, calls on this House to establish a peace
initiative involving all political role(c)players and parties in the Province;
and"

 X""
 that such an initiative include the drawing up of a peace accord with
all political role(c)players and parties as signatories to such an accord,
similar to the peace accord pre the 1994 elections."

I thank you.


  o F z

 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F >

 
THE SPEAKER:
  Any other motion?  Thank you.  Then let us move on.


  o F 
 8. X""
 ORDERS OF THE DAY:"

I propose that I leave the Chair.  I will ask the Sergeant(c)at(c)Arms to lower the
mace.


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 
THE HOUSE RESOLVED INTO A COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE

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MR M R MZOBE TAKES THE CHAIR


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THE CHAIRPERSON:
  The Committee of Supply resumes.  At this juncture, we
are going to deal with vote 7 which is Health.  I will therefore then ask the hon
the Minister to address the House.


KWAZULU(c)NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL, 1999/2000.
VOTE 7:  DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH.


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DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):
  Thank you, Mr Chairman, hon members
of this House, members of the media, the public gallery.  It is indeed a pleasure
to introduce to you today the Health Budget for 1999/2000.

I believe I can tell you, without any shadow of doubt, that the news is once           ""
!
!&&  
again good.  This is not to say that there is no bad news but we have made
progress, we have increased the extent of delivery, we have managed to
control the spending and stay within budget.  Before getting to the details of
the budget I would like to say a few words about the buckets and the ribbons
which form the theme for this year's presentation.

The significance of the little buckets is to illustrate the fact that when fighting
a fire, a row of people passing buckets can be highly effective.  We do not
always have to wait for the fire brigade and we can, with our own little buckets
of enthusiasm, commitment, caring and compassion, help fight the disease and
suffering.

What is a ribbon, Mr Chairman?  It is a narrow strip or band of fabric used to
bind things together.  A ribbon is also a strip of coloured cloth to indicate the
award of a medal or decoration.  Such awards are for courage, dedication and
service to others.  Ribbons are used to express unity or belonging.  But what
can ribbons do?  Can people take them to cure an illness?  No, of course not. 
However, the simple symbolic ribbon has the potential to harness the most
powerful force on the face of the Earth (c) that is the power of the mind, the
power of imagination.

Wallace Stevens, United States poet said, and I quote, "The imagination is
man's power over nature".  The great English poet Shelley was convinced that,
and I quote, "The great instrument of moral good is the imagination".  Joseph
Conrad, the Polish born English novelist observed that; "Imagination, not
invention, is the supreme master of art as of life".

So, hon members, what these symbolic ribbons can do goes far beyond any
medication or any surgical procedure.  These ribbons identify us as first and
foremost people of compassion and care.  They create an understanding that
without the participation of you and I, there will be no solutions.

I am therefore glad to be able to tell you today that the achievements of the
Department of Health in the past year are due, in no small way, to the efforts
of individuals.  They are the ribbons, the links, that keep the health service
going in spite of the huge challenges we face.
           ""
!
!&&  ԌFINANCE once again has become the topic number one in view of the
constraints faced by the Province and this Department over the past year.  I am
pleased to tell you that the present over(c)expenditure has been reduced from an
anticipated R621 million to no more than R32 million.  This has been achieved
in spite of salary increases and inflation.

This has been achieved, thanks to the dedication of almost all the Health
Department staff.  Cash flow committees set up at the institutions have
operated very well, and in a most positive spirit and a high degree of financial
discipline was achieved.  There was also a very positive response to the appeal
to eliminate wasteful practices and unnecessary prescriptions and this has been
acted upon without a noticeable decline in the service delivery.

To all our managers and staff who allowed us to realise this miraculous
achievement: Thank you.  Well done.  To our patients and members of the
public who made this possible in spite of the delays and inconvenience; we will
continue to dedicate ourselves to making things better for you.

In addition, in the first five months of the year the increase in revenue from the
patient fees increased by R5 million compared to last year.  Although this might
seem like a relatively small figure when compared to overall budget, these
amounts can make a substantial and noticeable difference.


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In the forthcoming financial year there is no major improvement in funding with
the following allocations made:

Administration`4- R   91 459 million
District Health Services`- R1,983 353 million
Provincial Hospital Services`- R1,763 722 million
Central Health Services`- R  582 034 million
Health Sciences`- R  128 890 million
Auxiliary and associated services`- R  344 079 million

The total budget is R4,893 billion but in spite of the apparent increase a
projected shortfall of R313 million is predicted for this financial year.  There is
a full explanation of the budget in your packages, and I hope when you check
your packages you will also find the extra goodies that have been placed there          ""
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for utilisation.

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HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

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  o F 
 
DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):
  Ladies and gentlemen, a worrying factor
remains the high percentage of budget spent on personnel compared to the
remainder of the service.  This year  Personnel expenditure will be R3,2 billion. 
This accounts for over 65%, just about 68% over the total budget, which is
down from 70% last year, but it does not yet provide enough of a balance to
allow for significant infrastructure and service development to take place,
because the figure includes capital expenditure for the new Durban Academic
Hospital which was not there before.

It is also necessary at this juncture to point out that cuts to the budget and the
decrease in expenditure does not come without any cost at all.  For instance,
the budget constraints means that there is no way in which the rehabilitation
of facilities and equipment can be addressed at present.  Although we will get
some relief from the special national allocation we will only reach some
semblance of normality by the year 2001/2002, and this means that we will
have to prioritise programmes and replacements very carefully.

It also means we are, in many instances, walking on a tightrope in terms of
infectious diseases and epidemics.  Services need to be expanded to underserviced areas.  Water supplies and housing need to be improved, economic
opportunities must be developed, violence and road accidents must be reduced
and levels of education must improve.  Many of these are beyond the scope of
the Department of Health but impinge severely on our capacity to maintain a
healthy community.

In fact, a number of health issues, AIDS in particular, cannot be left to medical
and health services alone.  This brings me to the AIDS issue and a quote from
Susan Sontag, a US essayist who said, and I quote: "Any important disease
whose causality is murky, and for which treatment is ineffectual, tends to be
awash in significance".  

Following the launch of the Cabinet AIDS initiative in 1997, there have been
tremendous developments in the fight against AIDS.  At national level AIDS          ""
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was transferred from the Health Portfolio to the Cabinet and then there has
been the latest development, the National Government's AIDS Partnership
campaign announced in October last year.

The fact that KwaZulu(c)Natal provided the impetus for these developments is
not an issue but the consensus seems to be that, at last, real and concrete
steps to cope with AIDS in our society are now taking place.  The new initiative
has been strongly supported by KwaZulu(c)Natal.  By incorporating AIDS issues
into everything we do, we hope to illustrate how seriously KwaZulu(c)Natal is
taking this problem.  Over and above the corporate communication activities,
our AIDS programme has been exceptionally busy this year.

Many leading commercial companies, academic institutions and other
organisations supported or arranged HIV/AIDS campaigns during the course of
the year and the Department involved itself in many of these highly effective
campaigns.  As encouraging as the developments are, they are not enough. 
AIDS is still spreading and the problem with dealing with it in society, in the
economy and in our daily lives must be addressed.

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 

What we will all have to consider now is how we can contribute towards
making life with AIDS manageable, what is affordable and what is morally
acceptable.  In this regard, we eagerly await the results of what is called the
Petra study, the SAINT trials aimed at finding viable alternatives to AZT and
other related trials that are going on, both in terms of cost and effectiveness
and the discussions about the HIV vaccinations, as this will influence our
position on the supply of AZT and other medication to alleviate suffering due
to HIV infection.  These studies are part of research work being done in this
Province.  I think it is important to mention this, because sometimes it sounds
like there is not much that is being done in this Province, but as a matter of
fact a lot of research is going on which will actually help to refine our policy on
the approach to HIV/AIDS.

About one in every five employees in the workforce is expected to have AIDS
by the year 2005, according to research released by Metropolitan Life recently. 
The survey suggests that currently about 11% of the workforce is infected
with HIV, but this will rise to at least 18% over the next six years.  Employers
who continue to assume responsibility for the rises in the costs of risk benefits          ""
!
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will need to add about 15% to their annual remuneration budgets by then.

In view of this reality, I would again appeal to all in the Province to avoid
politicising the AIDS issue.  We have done so up to now and I would disagree
with the notion presented recently in a large newspaper, that AIDS should be
an election issue and one used for the various parties to score political points
off one another.  It is also vital that AIDS is not presented as an issue over
which communities should be divided along political lines.  It is the one issue
above all others that should be uniting communities across political, cultural,
traditional and religious lines.  I can imagine the impact of an HIV/AIDS
awareness campaign, in a community, if it is conducted under the flag of one
particular organisation and people saying: "Well, we will not participate in an
HIV/AIDS awareness campaign until my party has got its own campaign".  I
think the use of HIV/AIDS in dividing the communities along political lines is
actually going to be disastrous.

It is time to forget political correctness, posturing and for one group to claim
to have more consequence than the next or to make outrageous claims and
promises.  AIDS kills and we must therefore all fight it together.  Not only is
AIDS a killer, but the cost of HIV/AIDS to the economy of KwaZulu(c)Natal is
already enormous, a reality that is very obvious to those involved in the delivery
of health care.

Treatment of patients with depleted immune systems takes longer, often
requires more drugs and more expensive types of treatment.  Already almost
40% to 60% of all patients in some of the KwaZulu(c)Natal Hospitals are HIV
positive.  Figures at the King Edward Hospital's antenatal clinic show that close
to 32% of all women tested were HIV positive.  At a time of severe economic
restraints, this situation poses huge problems for the health care providers.

HIV positive people can be cured of most of the conditions, including TB, and
can go on to lead normal, productive lives.  Others, who have advanced
towards developing full(c)blown AIDS might not be so lucky.  This provides the
health sector with a huge dilemma.  As health professionals we would like to
give everyone all the treatment possible all the time, as it is part of the health
ethos.
           ""
!
!&&  ԌHowever, community care has to become the basis for the treatment of
terminally ill patients and this will require all the compassion and the caring that
we can muster.  It will therefore require volunteers to be trained in caring for
AIDS patients at home with supplies that we will have to provide in a special
kit.  Not only does this make sense in keeping our institutions from becoming
overcrowded but it is also based on compassionate grounds.  The scheme is
being piloted in the Empangeni and Msinga areas and although it is very early
to make any deductions initial indications are encouraging.  Carers are being
trained to care for people at home and this training will be extended to
Community Health Workers.

There might be some concern about the amount spent on HIV/AIDS Awareness
Programmes which this year we have put it at R14,5 million.  That is too little,
but this does not take into account the unquantifiable hidden cost of curative
care given at our institutions.  It also does not take into account the awareness
generated by our staff throughout all the institutions and the one(c)on(c)one
communication that takes place every day.  I must say, Mr Chairman, that
there is no health institution that has not experienced the impact of HIV/AIDS
indicated in the kinds of treatment that they have got to dispense to their own
patients on a daily basis.

A patient with full(c)blown AIDS should not be allowed to waste away in a
hospital but should be surrounded by the comfort of family and community, and
treated with the love and dignity any human deserves.  We cannot cure AIDS
yet, but we can all cure our attitudes towards dealing with it.  I hope this year
will bring a new dimension to the involvement, understanding and caring of the
community in general.  This I mention in relation to some of the reports wherein
people have actually come out and disclosed their HIV positive status and have
in fact been attacked and some killed.  That kind of attitude has to come to an
end in our communities.

With this in mind it is vital that we expand the capacity and scope of our
Community Health Workers.  Throughout the world the trend is towards the
intervention at the earliest possible stage.  The earlier the intervention, the
cheaper and more effective the cure or the prevention process.  In other words,
it is better to prevent a problem than to have to solve it.
           ""
!
!&&  ԌFor this to happen people have to be informed about healthy lifestyles,
avoidance of disease, coping with their environment and safety in general. 
Community Health Workers can play an important role, not only in advising
people about health and spreading information, but also by linking them to their
appropriate health services by monitoring developments in a community and by
carrying out control measures.  This can help relieve pressure in the clinics and
hospitals.

For my part I commit my Department to increasing the current number of
serving Community Health Workers by at least 1 000 in the coming financial
year.  This will positively deal with the problem of Community Health Workers
who were trained but not employed.  The principles of greatest need and equity
will be our guide in determining their distribution in the Province.

We have had investigations in place in Health for some time and we have
successfully eliminated huge amounts of fraud.  However, it would be a grave
misconception, to think that a great portion of our budget is lost to FRAUD
AND CORRUPTION.  Investigations underway at the moment involve less than
half a percent of the budget.  Nevertheless, no fraud is acceptable and during
the course of last year, Health launched a dedicated telephone fraud hotline and
a post office box to compliment the provincial fraud hotline.  Both these
services are run at no cost to the Health services and are operated
independently of the Department.

During the course of the year, 34 cases of fraud totalling R11,6 million were
referred to the South African Police Service for investigation and 13 cases of
pharmaceutical theft valued at about R700 000.  Leave fraud was also
uncovered at various hospitals and the potential cost to the Department was
over R10 million.  Swift action has ensured that such losses will be kept to a
minimum.  The Department is also in the process of successfully recovering
about R6 million in respect of overpayments on catering contracts.  Over R1
million in supplier overpayments has also been recovered.

The National Nutrition and Social Development Programme has also been placed
under investigation.  A total of 2 124 files have bene examined in detail,
amounting to about R54,3 million.  This amounts to about 66% of the total
allocation and of this field investigations of R8,5 million have been completed.           ""
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More than 100 cases have been referred to the SAPS Commercial Fraud Unit
and a further R3,7 million is currently under field investigation.  The Department
is currently seeking the assistance of Treasury and the Auditor(c)General in
recovering the outstanding funds from the Primary School Nutrition Programme.

Mr Chairman, on the labour relations side.  Our labour relations improved
greatly in 1998 and there was a remarkable decline in the number of strikes
and labour action when compared to the previous years.  In 1998 there were
651 grievances, most of which were resolved to the satisfaction of both
parties.  Disciplinary issues amounted to 549 cases of which 270 resulted in
charges of misconduct.  The backlog of cases was reduced from 202 to 4, an
indication of the Department's commitment to improving the labour relations
climate within the organisation which is fundamental to creating a suitable
working environment.

Some idea of the COST EFFECTIVENESS of the hospital service delivery can be
gained from considering that the average cost per bed per day was R360 up R2
on last year.  The average cost per patient per day was R461, an increase of
just under 10% (c) and the average cost per clinic and Community Health Centre
attendance dropped by R1 to about R32.  Vaccinations given amounted to
R1,89 million and 12 million laboratory tests were done.

Productivity is measured largely by what we deliver at our INSTITUTIONS, and
we have again achieved high levels of productivity in the past year.  Annual inpatient days amounted to 6,3 million, out(c)patients to 5,6 million and there were
some 17 million hospital visits, clinic attendances, (excluding mobiles),
amounted to 13,6 million patients, and there were more than 200 000
operations.  This works out to a visit every second.

However, rationalisation of services has to take place and has to take place
fast.  Consultation does take place over a broad and representative spectrum
but we cannot accommodate those who seem to instinctively criticise any
rationalisation move.  We must serve the whole community to the best of our
ability, regardless of whom they are, and on the basis of going where the need
is greatest.  It is therefore pleasing to note that long queues, confusion about
referrals and other teething problems are already being solved.
           ""
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!&&  ԌIn this regard, management of our institutions will also be guided by an
internationally accepted approach of accreditation which is a self(c)monitoring,
ever improving style of management supervised by the Council for Hospital
Accreditation of South Africa, (called COHASA).  All hospitals will be affiliated
to the programme and all managers, including those at head office, will be
introduced into the programme to ensure its full application in KwaZulu(c)Natal.

Mr Chairman, this kind of programme is a strategy through which we are going
to be improving the quality of care in our hospitals.  It is the first time that in
any of the provinces this accreditation programme has been undertaken with
such a large number of hospitals.  At present mostly the private sector
hospitals have been taken through accreditation, but we are determined to
improve the quality of care in the hospitals so that the public hospitals will be
able to compete with the private sector.  This might sound like a dream today,
but I can tell you, Mr Chairman, that in the next few years, these hospitals are
going to prove to be more than a match for some of the private hospitals.  We
want to get to a point where ultimately the administrators of health, the
politicians, the members of Government of this Province will be able to show
confidence in their own hospitals by making sure that whenever they and their
families are sick, they go to the public hospitals.

The introduction of this programme has been enthusiastically received by our
staff and has helped to boost morale as there is an understanding that
accreditation is the backbone of a strategy that will revolutionise and reinforce
the enterprise model of management and lead to improved quality of care.  In
addition, the Department plans to appoint a Quality Assurance, Accreditation
and Assessment Unit and Clinical Epidemiological and Health Indicator Unit to
monitor and help improve the levels and direction of our services.

We are also currently exploring a number of options to improve and extend our
culture of compassionate care.  An incentive scheme that recognises
exceptional service and a public feedback mechanism that will allow individuals
to record their views, such as a toll free line, will form the two main pillars of
this strategy.  This will allow for community involvement in health care matters,
provide for accountability by health service providers, and recognise those (c) and
I believe there are very many (c) who provide exceptional levels of compassionate
care.          ""
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!&&Ԍ(tm)The DISTRICT HEALTH SYSTEM is being put in place throughout the Province
at present and although this is not without problems, the co(c)operation we are
receiving from local authorities and communities is outstanding, and we want
to thank them for it.  At this point I would like to appeal to people not to get
too excited about the titles or labels given to the various hospitals.  A district
hospital is not necessarily inferior to a regional hospital.  In fact, there are many
services that might be just as good at a district level than they are at regional,
tertiary or even national hospitals.  We mention this because this is the issue
of interpretation of what a district hospital or regional hospital is.  It is
presenting a problem with the understanding of the community in terms of
what to expect in the various hospitals that are within their areas.

The rationalisation process will be of benefit to the public at large.  It will not
impinge negatively on the quality of service received, in fact, it will improve it. 
This process is ongoing and both attendance patterns and cost(c)containment
indicate that we are already achieving a great deal of what this system was
designed to achieve.  One of the issues we want to get rid of are the racially
segregated hospitals that only exist because they were established during the
apartheid days.  We have to create some sort of sense of co(c)ordination within
the institutions that are in proximity so that the service that is being rendered
in those facilities is co(c)ordinated.

CLINICS continue to achieve astounding results and there are some quite
amazing changes in infant mortality rates and other successes.  Almost all the
new and upgraded clinics, 137 of them, are fully staffed and operating.  The
increase of almost three million attendances at clinics compared with the
previous year shows that we are successfully reaching communities on a scale
and at a rate unprecedented in our history.

Imagine what we could achieve if we could address the estimated backlog of
another 300 clinics in this Province.  In addition to the health service provided
to the communities the Clinic Upgrading Programme has had far(c)reaching
effects on our community life.  It has helped create 2 530 new state and local
authority jobs, 4 342 private sector job opportunities, 2 558 temporary jobs
and 1 341 permanent community jobs.  People given training through this
project amounted to about 2 487.  In addition, 97 capacity building projects,
where communities are given contracts for cleaning, security and garden          ""
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services, is injecting R12 million per year into these rural areas.

The cost of the project to date has been R240 million with R75 million coming
from the RDP, R33 million in special allocations and R4,8 million coming from
donations, and R125 million from our Province.  It has been a mammoth task
and one that the Department has carried through in an exemplary manner.

Clinic buildings and equipment.  If I may just pause here, Mr Chairman.  We
have not heard of any of the provinces being able to beat KwaZulu(c)Natal in
terms of the number of clinics that have been built.  We want to indicate that
we have actually moved at this rapid pace because we wanted to deal with the
issue of under(c)funding that our Province had suffered over the years.  But we
also want to indicate that there are very few, in fact we counted about nine
only, clinics that were not completed as a result of some technical problems
and difficulties with the contractors.  Some members referred to the fact that
we were creating white elephants that were for months not being utilised. In
fact it has been proven not to be so.

Clinic building and equipment are one thing, but the main and the most
important ingredient in health care delivery remains our STAFF.  The situation
at KwaZulu(c)Natal institutions is by no means favourable with almost 15% of
medical officer posts, 16% of nursing posts and 19% of professional posts
being vacant.  There is a 24% shortage of paramedical and technical staff.

Rationalisation will help alleviate some of the problems caused by these
shortages, but we certainly could do with more staff in these areas.  With
about 9 000 vacancies out of a staff establishment of about 59 000, it is
doubtful, Mr Chairman, whether the provision of a retrenchment tool from
Central Government would result in any further significant reduction of our staff
in our Department.  It is for this reason that we did not have many people
taking the severance packages in the Department of Health, because we do not
believe we can cut our staff much further than what it already is at the
moment.

Some relief has been afforded to us by the increased number of CUBAN
DOCTORS and we now have 64 Cubans working for us as well as over 260
other foreign doctors.  I am very grateful for their presence here in KwaZulu          ""
!
!&&  "Natal.  That is all of them.  Also contributing greatly to improved health care
in this Province are some 240 community service doctors, young South
Africans who are doing a great job whilst, at the same time, gaining the kind
of experience that will stand them in good stead in years to come.  The
example that they have shown should be commended not only by the
Department of Health, but also by the government at both Provincial and
National level.  I hope that the experience of making such a huge difference to
the lives of so many will encourage these young people to stay and help us
build our new nation.

In addition, the Red Cross FLYING DOCTORS project has helped to bring a cost
effective service to outlying hospitals.  When we said a few years ago that we
wanted to send specialists and the professors from Durban and King Edward
and all the big hospitals to go and treat people in the rural areas, several
hundreds of kilometres away in rural hospitals, like out in Newcastle, out in
Jozini, Manguzi, Bethesda, it sounded very much like a dream, but it is now
happening, Mr Chairman.  General, specialists and paramedic services have
been made available to outlying hospitals, with the idea being to take the skills
to the patient rather than transporting numerous patients long distances at
great expense.

The service started in June last year and at present the flying health workers
are visiting 22 hospitals on a fortnightly or monthly basis.  By the end of
February they had seen 9 000 patients and 500 health workers in these rural
areas received special lecturing and training.  The numbers do not paint the full
picture, because consideration also has to be given to the fact that this is a
high quality service that was previously unknown in many of our hospitals.  It
has been a marvellous success.

INFORMATICS has made considerable progress in the computerisation of
hospitals and the total installation base in Health is now 2 067 computers and
terminals with 1 501 printers.  The European Union donated 19 desktop
personal computers, 19 laster printers and 11 notebooks to be used for the
District Health System.  There are 63 hospitals that are now connected with
data lines, of which 49 are fully functional.  The health link E(c)mail system has
been installed into each and every hospital and community health centre in an
effort to improve communication throughout.   -       ""
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!&&Ԍ(tm)The two permanent Computer Software Training Centres have continued to be
very active and 877 persons have been given courses in the use of computers
to date.  In addition, 548 persons have been trained in PERSAL as at 31
December 1998.  The year 2000, the Y2K project was also started during
1998 and has been a most demanding task to perform.  Due to the magnitude
and the extent of the threat that Y2K poses to the public health and safety, as
well as the operational continuity of our institutions, the KwaZulu(c)Natal
Department of Health has adopted a managed and phased approach towards
combating the Millennium bug and the risk it poses to the Department.  As a
matter of fact, this is a very serious problem in the Department of Health
because if this is not corrected the ultrasonography that is used to estimate the
gestational age of the babies and the estimated date of deliveries will actually
be confused.  We will experience problems with the equipment that we use,
like the CT(c)scanners and the various other equipment, if the problem is not
rectified.

A team therefore has been formed to undertake this task to ensure operational
continuity without negatively impacting on the health and safety of the
patients, corporate systems and hospital operations.

AMBULANCE AND EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES is still one of the best
services in the world and one in which people and equipment are pushing the
extreme limits of efficiencies.  Faced with a budget cut of over R11 million, it
was necessary to adjust the service to be what it should be (c) an emergency
medical service, and not a taxi or bus service.

As such, ambulances responded to 345 549 cases, a decrease of about 17 348
over the previous year.  Nevertheless, this is still an enormous workload which
is reflected in that more than 17 million kilometres were travelled, down by 400
000 on 1997.  The total cost per emergency patient transported decreased
slightly from R399 to about R382.  However, the cost per kilometre increased
by about 90 cents to a figure of R7,77 per kilometre.  We will have to continue
to cut back on non(c)emergency work to try and help maintain the high standards
of emergency care that this service has achieved.  We are also determined to
take the strongest possible action against people who abuse the service or
make hoax calls.  A major problem remains the safety and security of
ambulance staff.  Hijackings are commonplace, with 54 ambulances being          ""
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!&&  
hijacked in the past year.  A further 51 health vehicles have also been hijacked
and this has made people delivering emergency, clinic, maintenance and other
services wary of entering certain areas.  In fact, the ambulance response to
cases in under 14 minutes has improved by 32% in urban areas, but decreased
by 53% in rural and peri(c)urban areas, partly because of the security situation.

In other instances, if this violence continues, certain clinic services will stop,
doctors will not be able to respond to night calls and maintenance crews will
not be able to operate.  I therefore make an appeal to communities to ensure
that the health services can take place in their areas and to report any
information they might have on criminal activities to the police.


  o F 

 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F \

 
DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):
  NUTRITION is a key to good health, and
last year 755 206 learners in 1 497 schools received food assistance.  This
year the figures are 1,3 million learners in 2 585 schools.  205 food gardens
have been developed, 4 384 employment opportunities created in schools and
reports indicate that there is improved school attendance, improved
concentration levels and a decrease in drop(c)out numbers where the Primary
Schools Nutrition Programme is in place.

Another programme that has made great strides is the MALARIA programme
where a joint project between Mozambique, Swaziland and KwaZulu(c)Natal is
taking place to address the problem of this disease in the Lubombo
development regions in particular.  KwaZulu(c)Natal is taking a leading role in this
fight against malaria which last year caused 38 deaths out of 11 426 cases
treated.  Amongst the achievements of our Province in relation to the issue of
malaria has been the hosting of an international conference which was held at
the ICC last week.  We hosted about 56 countries and about 900 delegates
from all over the world  converged on Durban to discuss the issues of malaria,
and the acknowledgement in so far as malaria is concerned.  The countries in
Africa have to work together, and therefore the issues of health are beginning
to take precedence over all the other political inhibitions that have separated
some of the African countries.  We believe that is one of the achievements of
our Department as well.
            ""
!
!&&ԌCOMMUNICATION, TRANSPARENCY AND CO(c)OPERATION are key
considerations in a democracy and the Department has maintained a high level
of contact and consultation throughout the year.  This is true not only in the
field of labour and employee organisations but also with respect to academic
institutions, such as the Universities and Technikons and non(c)governmental and
community(c)based organisations.

Both Health Promotion and Communication have made extensive use of the
mainstream media to get health messages, information and advice across to
communities.  In this effort they have been given outstanding support by the
media who have matched every paid centimetre or airtime second with an
equivalent or even greater amount of editorial coverage on health issues.  I
have to praise the media for their contribution in this regard. 

Compared to five years ago newspapers have elevated health issues to high
priority levels and the electronic media have reacted in a similar fashion.  This
is a very encouraging and indicative of a high level of understanding of the
needs of so many of our people.  I therefore again want to thank them most
sincerely for this.

LEGISLATION suitable to serve the new health system and approved by the
Health MINMEC was presented during this financial year and it is at present
with the Parliamentary Portfolio Committee.  I believe that it is essential that
this is approved as soon as possible so that the Department can act
competently and not under the constraints often placed upon it by fragments
of old legislation from the previous acts governing health care delivery in the
Province.

The regulation of TRADITIONAL HEALERS in KwaZulu(c)Natal has also received
considerable attention and the Department has participated in the process of
assisting traditional healers in the Province to set up a regulatory body that will
link up with the national initiative to form the Traditional Healers Council.

Focus has also been on issues that could lead to liability and prosecution, the
relationship between the patient and the Inyangas, working relationship
between the Department of Health and the Inyangas and the minimum
standards of training, examination and accreditation.  A key provision of   !       ""
!
!&&  
legislation will be that the Provincial Department will retain responsibility of
ensuring the safe delivery of health to the people in the Province and intervene
where this is compromised.

The MEDICO(c)LEGAL claims against the Department in the past year still to be
dealt with, amounts to 30 with claims of about R4,3 million.  Eight claims
amounting to R960 000 were settled out of court.  In view of the numbers we
serve, this is a very low figure, but it can be expected to grow, not because of
the increased negligence, but because of the development of a human rights
culture in health care and the awareness of the rights that patients have.

A MANAGER FOR TRANSFORMATION was appointed during the year.  The
agenda for this manager is to introduce an enterprise model of management to
the Department flattening the organogram, team building, devolution of powers
to regions, policy and planning and development of the District Health System.

The aim will be to ensure that the transformation takes place throughout the
organisation not for the transformation's sake alone, but in the interests of
delivering better quality services and increased levels of caring and compassion. 
To this end a five year plan is being formulated so that transformation can be
incorporated into the Department in an effective manner with the least possible,
or without any, disruption.  During the first year 1999/2000 the focus will be
on: integration of services, the verification of all statistics, health, human
resource audit, equipment audit, developing strategies and policies and
reviewing systems and processes putting in place cornerstones for the District
Health System implementation.

The subsequent years will focus on implementation along with the constant
evaluation of the various strategies, policies, systems and processes.  Every
year health targets will be set in line with the projected five year health targets
and at the end of the year a review of health targets achievement will be
carried out.  Decentralisation of hospital management will be introduced in
Central Hospitals first, cascading down to Tertiary, Regional and District
Hospitals.  During the fourth year, 2002/2003, the overall strategy of the past
few years will be reviewed.
   "        ""
!
!&&  ԌMr Chairman, hon members,in CONCLUSION, I think the cooperation and the
support that Health has received during the year reflects the fact that although
we might often differ on the details, there is no divisions amongst the parties
in KwaZulu(c)Natal on the issues of health being vital to the well(c)being of our
people and the development of this Province.  I am therefore grateful for the
interest shown by the members of this House and the solidarity shown by all
on health matters, as reflected by the co(c)operation I have received at Cabinet
level and in the Portfolio Committee on Health, especially from the Chairperson
Dr Mtalane.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 

 
DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):
  Thank you all very much for your
commitment.

Hon members, in closing, I would also like to say that since our last budget
session the Department of Health has saved hundreds of thousands, perhaps
millions of lives.  It has done so under difficult circumstances and without the
greatest of resources at its disposal.  The key ingredient that has allowed us to
make our headway and reach more people in this Province than has ever been
done before, is our own people.  I can say with certainty that the vast majority
of the people who work for the Department of Health are hard working, caring,
compassionate and dedicated individuals.

In spite of the severe constraints under which our doctors, nurses and other
staff have worked, their commitment and co(c)operation has turned the
Department of Health from the crisis torn organisation in 1994 to a successful
model of good service in 1999.  I humbly believe that they have helped me
grow as a person and greatly enriched my experience.  I am proud of them and
I want to pay tribute to them all.  I would therefore, Mr Chairman, like to table
the budget for the Department of Health.  Thank you very much.


  o F @
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F -
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr Minister.  Now that the hon Minister has
completed his speech, I will now call upon Dr L J Mtalane, who is the
Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee.  Thank you.   #       ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
DR L J T MTALANE:
  Thank you, Mr Chairman, and your hon House.  It has
been mentally healthy and enjoyable to lead this Portfolio Committee since
1994, the area of my profession, nursing.  There has been back up through inservice education by the National Health Portfolio Committee, which
commenced in January 1995.  One of the important tasks of the Portfolio
Committee is to monitor the health care delivery and to back up the Minister. 
Backing up the Minister is not a favour or an option, but the Minister is another
member of Parliament who is placed in the Department and is charged with the
responsibility of ensuring that what Parliament approves of is implemented in
the service.  The National Government has been responsible to demonstrate
that Health is a Social service by a reasonable budget allocation.  Minister
Manuel has verbalised this in the 1999 budget speech, a 9,6% increase has
been realised.  The only problem with the National Health Department is that
it has failed in the four and a half years to put in place the National Health Act. 
This is indeed a shame and a disgrace, plus half of a shame and plus threequarters of a disgrace.  We need a National Health Policy to guide provinces
and local governments.


  o F 
 
NCOP BILLS

The Health Portfolio Committee has participated in the following Bills, namely
the Sterilisation Bill and the Tobacco Products Control Bill.

The other involvement was in the formulation of the Traditional Healers' Policy. 
It was unfortunate that the final draft put in one political party's recognition of
traditional healers.  The other political party that even had a government
proclamation and licensed them, is not mentioned.


  o F 
 
MONITORING THE HEALTH SERVICES


  o F |
 
THE HIV/AIDS CAMPAIGNS


Community(c)directed health education is gradually making an impact on the
minds of our people.  They are becoming positive in accepting HIV/AIDS as a
reality.  The public often does not know where to get condoms.  If this could
be publicised.  The Cabinet initiative (c) National and Provincial, is encouraging. 
Community leaders should take it upon themselves to support the HIV/AIDS   $       ""
!
!&&  
campaign.  Likewise, the Social Works Department should help the community
by participating in the home(c)based care and the care of orphans.  The misery
and conflict within families, communities (c)suspecting each other of
bewitchment by "idliso", calls for the practice of responsible confidentiality (c)
and to shed off this cloak of secrecy.  There is a pressing need that the primary
family units be informed of the diagnosis of the ill member of the family.


  o F .
 
NUTRITION PROGRAMME


Financial controls have been exercised to the detriment of children not being
fed in primary schools.  The problem is in the implementation of this
programme.  One still maintains that bilateral accountability for this programme
is the key problem.  Both Health and Education have a responsibility to ensure
that our young are nourished for a better future, and a healthy nation.  One
wonders what is the situation of school health nurses' teams.  Is it possible
that they should be involved or should school governing bodies be given a
chance?


  o F 
 
AMBULANCE SERVICES


The emergency medical services, there is still concern about racial tension in
this section of your service, Mr Minister.  Tension among staff and refusal to
pick up black patients from their areas.  These problems or attitudes have no
place in this democratic government.


  o F 
 
STOPPAGE OF PRIVATE AMBULANCES


How much savings has the Department made in this area, Mr Minister?  Was
there any political influence from your part in stopping this service?  This House
will recall that the Minister was challenged by the Chairperson during the 1995
budget debate.  The quotation of payments which were made only for one
month, end of April 1995 was as follows:  One got R300 000, the other got
R200 870, the other R37 000, the other R70 000, to mention a few.  Where
private ambulances were stopped, was there a government ambulance service
put in place, Mr Minister?


   %        ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 DISTRICT SURGEONS


One realises that the Minister has a problem of negative racial attitudes in this
programme.  There are areas where doctors are farmers.  When there are
problems, you find that the community leaders do not know the Regional
Director (c) to appeal to.  Can these officials make themselves known to the
communities they serve?


  o F 

 
HOSPITAL BOARDS AND CLINIC ADVISORY COMMITTEES


Although these structures are in place, one does not see their significant role. 
What can the Minister tell the House about their function?


  o F z

 
DISTRICT HEALTH SERVICE (DHS)


This programme is meant to be the final decentralisation strategy.  Here and
there, racial attitudes sour the health care delivery.  The biggest problem,
however, is the shortage of staff.  The system seems not to have taken its
course.


  o F 
 
CLINICS AND HOSPITALS UPGRADING AND BUILDING PROGRAMMES


The building of clinics has been fast and the Department is failing to cope with
the staffing.  The Health Department report indicates that out of 71 hospitals
evaluated, only 28 met the required standard, that is 43 failed the test.  That
is serious and one pleads that prioritising renovation be reviewed now and
again.  One would also plead with MPPs to check hospitals in their areas and
report to the Department.

One, however, pleads that senior government officials charged with managerial
functions at operational level, to utilise the human resources made available to
them, to keep up satisfactory maintenance and hygienic standards of their
hospitals facilities.  For a Hlabisa Hospital Medical Superintendent to take the
TV crew to the uncleaned backyards (c) is not a poor reflection of this KwaZuluNatal Government of Provincial Unity, but a reflection on his poor supervision. 
This Medical Superintendent is paid by this Government to be the overall
supervisor of the hospital.   &       ""
!
!&&Ԍ(tm)Besides supervision, there must be motivations submitted to ask for renovations
to be done.  But, on site visits by officials charged with this rehabilitation
process will make them set up priorities.  I am concerned about this Medical
Superintendent, Mr Minister, because at the 50th year Jubilee last year, he
found a platform to complain about his staff performance and no funds for
running the District Health Service.  Mr Minister, this could be a sign that there
is no in(c)service education for this category of staff.


  o F 

 
STUDENT NURSE (c) TRAINING FUNDING 


The Health Portfolio Committee is happy that students will now go onto a
bursary system.  The Portfolio Committee took upon itself the matter with the
Ministry in 1997 (c) citing a student who had been training for 11 years instead
of four years.


  o F >

 
NURSES HOMES' ILLEGAL TENANTS


Mr Minister, there are some institutions that allow free boarding and lodging to
members of the public.  Surely we need these institutions to be cleansed like
you did at Prince Mshiyeni Hospital.  The Health budget allocation is surely not
for such mischief.


  o F l
 
BUDGETARY CONTROLS THAT IMPINGE ON HEALTH DELIVERY



  o F 0
 (i) X""
 Moratorium on staff employment."

 X""
 This is a silent retrenchment strategy (c) a non(c)replacement of staff that
retire, die or are disabled.  This at times causes a lot of problems and
frustration.  Shortage of caring staff results in patient neglect."


  o F |
 (ii) X""
 Cutting down on ambulances and categorising types of illness (c) why
is the public not notified through the media of the intended changes? 
To know that a delivery is not an emergency when one phones when
the wife is in labour, is indeed frustrating and it causes psychological
trauma to the husband, of course.  It wipes out the good image one
held of the Health Department."
   '        ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (iii)
  ELECTIVE SURGERY


 X""
 This raises a lot of emotions within the communities.  Everybody in
this Province knows about the plight of a certain Mr Mkhize,
uKhabezela who had to wait for six months for an operation to correct
his retention of urine problem.  The media highlighted the waiting
period.  The public needs health education to take them along this
process of change, Mr Minister."


  o F 

 (iv) X""
 
TERMINATION OF PREGNANCY
"

 X""
 The Health report reflects that 5 175 abortions between February
1997 and October 1998 were performed.  At what cost, Mr Minister? 
No ambulances, but money for abortions?"


  o F >

 (v) X""
 
CLINIC SERVICE
"

 X""
 The communities need a 24 hour service, but due to violence and
most of them provide days' service.  It is noted that some areas never
previously affected by violence operate for only eight hours now. 
Why, Mr Minister?  When can we expect our clinics to have medicines
and surgical supplies that will be sufficient to cater for the community
needs?"


  o F 0
 (vi)
 X""
 HEALTH EDUCATION
"

 X""
 Health education through the media is very good, particularly Ukhozi

  o F 
 olumaphikophiko luhamba phambili  [The multi-winged Ukhozi is

  o F 
 superior].  The trend, however, is to highlight HIV/AIDS and has
tended to overlook other killer diseases like malaria, tuberculosis,
etcetera.  The latter, requires not only weekly slots per annum (c) but a
regular programme.  "

 X""
 Your inclusion of certain rare conditions such as genetic disorders is
appreciated.  That down to the people nurse called Dudu Sibiya is an
asset to the health education programme, and an asset to the nation. 
Health education of the public must include rights of patients/clients   (       ""
!
!&&  
within the health service.  This must be an intensive programme for
health consumers to be happy.  By the way, it is not only lawyers that
have clients, but the health service also has clients, those people that
come for the promotion of health and are not ill."


  o F j
 (vii)  
COMBINATION OF REGIONS E AND H (EMPANGENI AND JOZINI)


 X""
 What a huge Region, Mr Minister, Chairperson and hon members, this
huge Region created by the Department includes Empangeni, Eshowe,
Nkandla, Catherine Booth, Mbongolwane (the small donkey), Hlabisa,
Bethesda, Mosvold at Ngwavuma, Manguzi and Mseleni!  Is this
Region manageable, Mr Minister?"


  o F z

 
CONCERNS OF STAFF ATTITUDES AND COMMITMENT TO PERFORMANCE


Mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe, umphakathi uyakhala ngezinga lokuphatheka
kwawo laphaya ezibhedlela zikaHulumeni.  Kodwa umphakathi uyasho ukuthi
kukhona amanesi akahle.

Umuntu uyamangala, angazi kahle Mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe ukuthi uma
ulungisa izibhedlela ukuthi zibe zinhle unethemba lokuthi umphakathi uyoya
kulezibhedlela zakho zikaHulumeni ukuthi kuyosebenza yini lokho?

Siyanxusa ngokuzithoba ukuthi amahlengikazi bethu bake babenomusa,
nothando lweziguli.  Ngamanye amazwi abahloniphe amalungelo alabo
abagulayo, bahloniphe nesithunzi somuntu.

Ngeke Mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe, ngikucele ukuthi abafundiswe bavuselelwe
ngoba bona laba bahlengikazi abasuke bezibhedlela zikaHulumeni uma
sebehamba beya ezibhedlela lezi ezizimele bashintsha unyawo.

Bakhumbula konke abakufundisayo ukuthi unesi uziphatha kanjani, nokuthi
isiguli siziphatha kanjani.  Ngani ngoba lezibhedlela ezizimele azizwani nento
ebhedayo.  Wena Hulumeni ukuvumelani lokho na?


  o F -
 
TRANSLATION:
  Hon Minister, the community is complaining about the level
of treatment they receive from government hospitals.  But, the community is   )       ""
!
!&&  
also saying that there are nurses who are good.

One is surprised.  I am not sure, hon Minister, whether it would work to
renovate and improve hospitals with the hope that the community will go to
those government hospitals.

We plead that nurses should have mercy and love for patients.  In other words,
they should respect the rights of patients, and respect human dignity.

I will not ask, hon Minister, that they be re-trained because the very same
nurses, who are in government hospitals, when they go to private hospitals,
they change their ways.

They remember everything they were taught regarding the manner in which
nurses should conduct themselve and how patients should be treated.  Why? 
It is because private hospitals do not tolerate nonsense.  Why is the
Government accepting that?  T/E



I am saying, there is wide concern in the public about the non(c)caring attitude
of hospital staff, especially nurses.  May I point out, the public feels that there
are also some good nurses.  One wonders, Mr Minister, whether your effort of
renovating the hospitals to attract patients with medical aids will ever
materialise.  We call upon our nurses to respect, to be kind and considerate to
patients.  In other words, to respect the rights of patients and their human
dignity.  I cannot ask the Minister that they be in(c)service trained, because the
very nurses when they change employment to the private sector they practice
the desired work ethics.  Private hospitals take no nonsense from staff.  Why
does the Government allow this poor performance?


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F ^
 
DR L J T MTALANE:
  


  o F "
 
STAFF COMMITMENT (c) HEAD OFFICE


It is gratifying to deal with your Head Office, Mr Minister, both professional and
non(c)professional (c) they are warm, caring and efficient.  I recall the doctors here   *       ""
!
!&&  
last year, during the last year's health budget debate, when one of our
members here, the late Mr V V Mvelase became ill.  They attended to him and
ultimately took him to Grey's Hospital.  One realises that they still maintain that
professional attitude.

Elimination of fraud was pioneered by this Department.


  o F .
 
STAFF AT OPERATIONAL LEVEL



  o F 

 (c) X""
 The replacement of toyi(c)toyi by utilisation of the Labour Relations with
its Bargaining Chamber has been a very positive step."


  o F 

 (c) X""
 Thanks to the service rendered by the Cuban doctors."


  o F \

 (c) X""
 The monitoring of cash flow by the Hospital management has been a
significant staff development programme."


  o F 
 (c) X""
 The toil of staff at operational level, being short staffed, in the care of
patients, operations, emergencies, handling disasters, on day and night
duty, and providing ambulance services even in danger.  We thank
you, all of you health service personnel, and be assured we entrust our
lives in your hands.  The cleaners, the boiler attendants, the airconditioner apparatus team, incineration team, workshops, stores,
laundry, linen room, the security we thank you all."


  o F 
 (c) X""
 Lastly, I thank the members of the Health Portfolio Committee for their
dedication and even those who have left, namely Mr Wilkins and Mr
Redinger."


  o F 
 (c) X""
 We wish Mrs Mkhize a speedy recovery."


  o F ^
 (c) X""
 Thanks to our committee secretaries, Miss Zulu, Miss Gounden and
the present Miss Thoko Zitha, and Miss S'thombe Mqadi who relieved
now and then."


  o F -
 (c) X""
 Dr Mkhize, thank you for your responsible work.  You attended
Portfolio Committee meetings (c) so that we did not struggle with health   +       ""
!
!&&  
problems.  It has been a pleasure to work with you.  You proved that

  o F  
 "ubudoda abukhulelwa". [you demonstrated that manhood does not

  o F 
 go according to categorical age].  You are still very young, but you are
doing a very important duty being Minister of the Department."

I hope the good Lord shall bless all I did with the Health Portfolio Committee,
solutions of health conflicts in the hospitals, and communities and at times
even staff problems which you always welcomed.  Some staff take advantage
that I once worked in the Department and they come to me, you think they are
coming with political problems and yet it is just personal problems.

Last but not least, we thank the National Government for the reasonable
budget.  We remember those days in grief when we were given a lousy R1,7
billion during the apartheid rule, when white hospitals got a huge budget, but
here in KwaZulu(c)Natal we only got R1,7 billion.

Thanks to the Finance Portfolio Committee led by a young man the hon Mr D
Makhaye, and also Mr Sipho Shabalala, Secretary of Finance (c) for guiding us as
Health Portfolio Committee in monitoring the budget.  Baie dankie almal.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F l
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Dr Mtalane.  I now call upon Dr A Luthuli to
address the House for 12 minutes.  Dr Luthuli.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
DR A N LUTHULI:
  I thank you, Mr Chairman, hon members.  I want to
congratulate the Minister and the Department of Health in this Province for a
job well done.


  o F ^
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F "
 
DR A N LUTHULI:
  In five years the turnaround in health delivery is such as the
country has never seen before.  I think all of us here, as members of
Parliament, can attest to that.  There is no denying that.  
   ,        ""
!
!&&  ԌThe Department set about on a programme of transformation, rationalisation
and integration.  This was to correct the chaos of apartheid, of many, many,
many years of apartheid.  Even of previous governments before apartheid,
when many Health Departments were in existence, according to race, ethnicity,
tribe, economic status, etcetera.  The Department of Health has turned this
around in spite of financial constraints.  I want to apologise to members of
parties that were there before, for referring to the past.  I know they are very
sensitive about this issue, but I am afraid fellow citizens we cannot escape
history.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 

 
DR A N LUTHULI:
  That was said by Abraham Lincoln.  There has been talk of
cancellation of the foreign debt, and it looks like, in fact, it is something that
may happen.  We would applaud that very much, because those are badly
needed resources in a country like ours and many others like us, where the
social programmes are very lacking and every cent is needed to improve them
due to our past.

On taking office in 1994, the National Department of Health stated clearly the
long held vision by the ANC for health in our country, that health should be
accessible, affordable, sustainable and yet it should be quality care for all the
citizens of this country through the primary health care approach.  


  o F 0
 

That approach is the approach of preventive, promotive, curative and
rehabilitative health care.  We have seen the Department begin, and are
seriously moving towards achieving that.  You have heard the Minister lay out
before us what has been done in that regard.

I want to turn to the diseases that have caused high mortality amongst our
people, and those are malaria, TB, HIV/AIDS, HIV is really not a disease, it is
AIDS, and turn my interest to the controversy that is raging at present as to the
value of AZT and the whole controversy about the treatment of pregnant
women.  As the Minister has already alluded to, our Province was brought into
the spotlight, last week, when the malaria conference was held.  I think all of
us who attended gained a lot.  In fact, it was interesting to hear that malaria
is still killing so many people.  We never really envisaged that and our scientists   -       ""
!
!&&  
and academics are taking a keen interest, in a united manner beyond ourselves
here as South Africans, to come to terms with the problems.

TB is causing a lot of deaths in the country, and that has escalated now with
the HIV.  This week, I think yesterday in fact, was World TB Day.  One would
hope that that has made an impression on all of us, particularly as members
who represent the people here, that TB is indeed a killer in this country, it is a
serious killer.  At the moment perhaps TB, I cannot separate it from AIDS, but
it was there even before AIDS.  I think that more people perhaps are dying from
TB and malaria than from AIDS.

This matter of AIDS is interesting.  If you take the experience in other
countries, no matter what health advisors say, like our Health Department is
doing, trying to advise people to prevent infection, perhaps because it is a
matter so close to the heart and is related to sex, the acquisition of the virus. 
It so happens that if we look at what has happened in other countries, a lot of
effort is put in by health care workers and the health care departments, to
advise people to stay away from unprotected sex, but they do not, they just
carry on.  They even ridicule the use of condoms and whatever we tell them. 
So the graph rises, the graph of infection.  At some point it reaches a peak and
people begin to die and then when they see people dying, then they begin to
say: "Oh ja, no I do not want to die".  Unfortunately by that time a lot of the
population has already been infected.  But in fact, the graph then begins to sort
of control itself, sort of takes that course and begins to control itself and when
they die, die, die, then the graph will begin to fall.

I am not saying that as health carers we should not really take our duties
seriously of advising people to take all the measures necessary to prevent
infection, but I am afraid observation will support what I am saying.

I just want to concentrate for a moment, Mr Chairman, on the article that was
circulated to all the parliamentarians here, that was the article on AZT.  This
subject of AZT and pregnant women, we need to put it in perspective.  At the
moment I will accept that it is still a matter for debate, and therefore I am
contributing towards that debate.  I do not think we should pressurise our
National Minister to take any decision on this matter before the matter has been   .       ""
!
!&&  
fully debated.  I will just present to you an article here which gives the other
perspective, different from the one that was presented to you previously. 
There are quite a few issues that need to be addressed, and I think the best
way to address them is by asking specific questions related to that article.

Does AZT work in preventing vertical transmission of the virus from the
pregnant mother to the baby?  The answer is a big yes.  The article by the
lawyer avoids answering this specific question.  He gives no references to his
arguments, neither does he discuss any of the studies that address the use of
AZT.


  o F 	
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Two minutes left for the hon member to wind up.


  o F z

 
DR A N LUTHULI:
  I will go through the key studies and summarise the results
as they were presented.  In 1994 the first study by the ACTOGO 76 led by
Connor E M and others published in New England Journal of Medicine:


  o F 
 1. X""
 This was the first major breakthrough regarding the use of AZT during
pregnancy.  The points to note from this study were, the AZT was
started from 16 weeks pregnancy orally to the mother.  During labour
the mother was given AZT intravenously.  After the delivery the babies
were not breast fed and they were put on AZT for six weeks.  Results: 
they cut the transmission of the virus by 67%.  In other words,
normally about 20% of babies without treatment would end up dying
from AIDS in Europe and in the USA, but by using this protocol, only
8,7 developed AIDS.  Comments:  since they started the treatment at
16 weeks and then used intravenous doses during labour and then
treated the baby for six weeks, the cost factor is enormous,
particularly for developing countries."

This is the other perspective:


  o F @
 2. X""
 Since the mother is on AZT for so long, there is a greater chance of
the HIV developing resistance.  "


  o F -
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Time is up for the hon member.  Thank you.
   /        ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
DR A N LUTHULI:
  Thank you.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  I will now call upon the next speaker, the hon member
Mr M B Gwala to address the House for 14 minutes.  Thank you.


  o F .
 
MR M B GWALA: (Leader of the House):
  Mr Chairman, I would like to
congratulate the Minister on his budget speech.  Right from the outset, I would
like to say that I do support the budget.  The Ministry of Health is one of the
most important departments.  As I indicated in the previous years, we know
that without health there is no life.  So we are confronted with various
problems in the Health Department, from dilapidated buildings to a shortage of
doctors.  Other problems include lack of medication, lack of health education
and so forth.  But we are a little bit puzzled that although the National
Department has a stringent budget, funds within the Department are being
embezzled.

The National Minister has financed many projects, one which is popular, that
stands out, is Sarafina II.  These projects have put the Health Department back
by millions of Rands.  This money comes out of the pockets of taxpayers,
people who believe that the Government has its own interests at heart. 
Recently Dr Zuma's sister, Mrs Ngxongo also embezzled millions of Rands, yet
the ANC Government has not done anything to remove Dr Zuma from office.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
MR M B GWALA: (Leader of the House):
  Do they believe that she acted rightly
or honestly?  It is useless to complain about under(c)funding when taxpayer's
monies are channelled to certain projects for no other reason than to please
members of a certain political party.

Today, I have decided to focus and direct my input to the issues related to the
HIV/AIDS epidemic.  Recently, I came across an interesting version of the
acronym AIDS, that is, "Americans' intention to discourage sex".  I know this
sounds amusing and lighthearted, but this is the way many South Africans
think.  They think of AIDS as something that will not happen to them.  Well,   0       ""
!
!&&  
as the Minister has said, I also want to reiterate that AIDS does not
discriminate according to race, class or sex.  AIDS is real and can happen to
anyone.

HIV/AIDS is probably one of the most serious and far(c)reaching issues this
country will have to face in the near future.  We simply cannot afford to ignore
this threat any longer.  We have on our hands an epidemic disease which has
the potential to disrupt and ruin this country socially, economically and health
wise.  AIDS does not have to be viewed as a health issue, but as an issue that
will affect every sphere of the South African society.  When I looked at the
statistics, it became clear that there was a definite upswing of the disease,
cases in KwaZulu(c)Natal were reported to be as high as 27%.  On the whole,
South Africa has 2,8 million cases of AIDS.  Colleagues, this means that we are
to expect 2,8 million deaths or 2,8 million funerals.

There must be immediate steps taken, not by the Department only, but by
everyone in every society because this disease is an international issue.  I think
there are some issues that need to be dealt with by various communities.


  o F 
 1. X""
The first one is the unbalanced socio(c)economic standing for women,
where women continue to depend on their partners for financial
support.  Women feel that if they insist on condoms, their partners will
not provide for them financially.  Placed in this predicament, women
find it difficult in negotiating for condoms."


  o F 
 2. X""
 There has to be some "change of behaviour" as both the women and
men still have multiple sex partners without using a condom.  When
male partners are asked to use a condom, they say that you cannot
eat a lollipop with the wrapper on.  This is the misconception in
society that one cannot enjoy sex with condoms."


  o F ^
 3. X""
 We also need to teach people that condoms are not the only mode of
combatting the spread of HIV/AIDS, but people have to remain faithful
to their partners."


  o F -
 4. X""
 Our society needs to revisit their tradition and culture where both men
and women are encouraged to stay virgins until they are married."   1       ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)5. X""
 We need to encourage people already living with the disease to come
out, and people without the virus not to discriminate against those
people.  Often, what we find happening is that individuals who have
the virus do not tell partners for fear of the stigma or rejection,
etcetera.  But they do not realise that they are simply adding more
numbers to the AIDS death list.  "

 X""
 AIDS can happen to anyone.  We need to start getting rid of the
stigma surrounding AIDS.  I know that people who have AIDS are
treated with contempt and prejudice.  This has to stop.  I remember
the incident of Gugu Dlamini.  Gugu Dlamini was an AIDS activist. 
She did nothing wrong, yet she was killed.  She was killed because
she had the virus.  I condemn such killings, and the IFP condemns
such killings in the strongest terms.  It is time for us to re(c)educate our
nation and to cleanse our society from all myths."


  o F  

 6. X""
 I know that treatments for AIDS/HIV are very expensive, but we
should not forget that they are our people (c) with AIDS or without
AIDS.  The Health Department must treat all those that are infected."


  o F 
 7. X""
 We should also pledge our support to our Young Positive Living
Ambassadors Project which is a pilot project right here in KwaZuluNatal.  Hon members, these terminally ill people need our support. 
They need us.  Let us be there for them, and I ask you also to pledge
your support."

As far as treatment goes, it can be said emphatically that there is no cure for
AIDS, but I want to share something with you.  Eileen Hilda Jamile (18741962) once said in her teachings, I quote:

 X""
 There are no such things as incurable diseases there are only diseases
for which man has not found a cure."

This is so true.  It is not that there is no cure, it simply means that a cure has
not been found.  Up to now the ANC Government has failed dismally in
addressing the AIDS issue positively.  The Department of Health, under the
leadership of Dr Zuma, has of yet had no real success with the AIDS strategy.    2       ""
!
!&&  
Also current treatment is merely supportive and symptomatic and in most cases
unaffordable.

The main factor contributing to the rise in AIDS figures stems around poverty
and poor living conditions of many South Africans.  This together with
inadequate services provided for in health contribute to the spread of the
disease.  Sexual promiscuity and prostitution are widespread.  Additional
factors contributing to the spread of the HIV virus is the role of culture, crime
and violence (c) particularly rape.

For most Africans, traditional healers hold a special place in society.  In
KwaZulu(c)Natal, at least 60% of the African people visit herbalists and/or
Izinyanga.  Recently, a drug was developed to help cure men's impotence,
Viagra.  But I want to tell you that the black community had Viagra for
centuries.  Yes, our equivalent is Intonga eyephukile and Ugqubu Iwempala.

A government study found that traditional healers are the first ones consulted
in times of illnesses and this was because these traditional healers were more
accessible.  At the outset, I want to state that we have two categories of
healers.  The good healers and the bad healers: The good healers are those who
help their people, while the bad healers are those that manipulate people for
money.  Many of these bad herbalists have promised a so(c)called "cure" for the
disease in return for large sums of money.

I want to tell you that these herbalists or traditional healers do not have a cure
for the disease.  It is a mere deception that they can cure the disease.  I know
that when people hear that they have been infected, out of desperation and
urgency they turn to these healers.  I want to tell you also that you do not live
on false hopes or false pretence (c) there is no cure for AIDS at least.

Now I want to share a story with you, that will highlight the essence of my
speech.  The story of Nobhiyana Madonda.  One day, King Shaka smeared
some blood on his doorpost.  The following morning he called all the Sangomas,
about 500 in all.  He then asked them (c) I do not think he is a member of
Madondo (c) who smeared his blood over the doorpost.  Many Sangomas replied
that enemies intended to harm the King.  Only one Sangoma, Nobhiyana
Madonda, whose tombstone is not far from here, said it was the "Great   3       ""
!
!&&  
Heaven" (referring to King Shaka the Great).  This anecdote is a reflection of
what is happening in our society.  Herbalists are lying to the infected people
about certain cures.  I want to remind you again that a cure has not been
found.  Thus, we need to have some type of legislation against these herbalists. 
They are really committing a crime.  Legislation can help apply the brakes to
this kind of rip(c)off.  Yes, it is a rip(c)off, or a trick to swindle money.

There must be a policy regarding the prevention of the AIDS cryptic.  This
means that there needs to be tougher legislation to protect those that do not
have AIDS from those who do.  Often we find that infected people have sexual
intercourse with unaffected partners without telling them (c) there needs to be
some legislation to stop this from happening.  Also this problem of adultery,
when spouses have affairs they are putting their families at risk.  This has to
stop.  It is time that we start doing something about the spread of this disease.

I know many AIDS infected persons who believe that drinking certain "muthi"
will cleanse them of their disease.  This really is deception.  There is no herbs
or muthi that can clean one of AIDS.  This is an epidemic and if we believe that
herbs and muthi are going to help, then we are heading for a national disaster. 
I know that this sounds arrogant, especially for the people who feel that this
is their only hope, but it is true.  There is no cure and if the herbalists had a
cure it would have been marketed in chemists and hospitals.  It is time that we
start thinking seriously about this and stop living on false hope.

I would like to thank Professor Green(c)Thompson, the Deputy Director(c)General,
and those dedicated staff who are there to service the community.  I am saying
this because we have observed and we have discovered that the Department
of Health, including the National Department, is used as a centre for political
activities.  But we appreciate that some officials are resisting to be used as a
political cannon to achieve political goals, rather than having the health of the
Province as their mission.

In conclusion, I call you as members of this House to pledge your support for
those living with AIDS/HIV.  Mr Chairperson, if I was writing a letter to you, I
would end off by saying, "Yours in the struggle against HIV/AIDS".  Let us
stand by them and with them.  I thank you for listening to my speech.  I thank
you.   4       ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr Gwala.  I will therefore call upon the hon
member Mrs C Galea to address the House for seven minutes.  Hon Mrs Galea.


  o F 
 
MRS C E GALEA:
  Thank you, Chairperson, hon members.  An amount of
R4,893 billion has been allocated to the Health Department for this financial
year.  I was thinking of AIDS.  This allocation includes a conditional grant for
the Durban Academic Hospital, primary school nutritional programme, central
hospital services and a column 2 conditional grant of R25 million for the
maintenance of hospitals and equipment.

Reports from field workers and principals indicate that the school nutritional
programme:


  o F z

 (a) X""
 improved school attendance and increased enrolment at schools where
they feed the children;"


  o F  

 (b) X""
 it improved concentration in class;"


  o F 
 (c) X""
 had fewer illnesses associated with hunger."

In 1996 R104 million was allocated to this programme, of which R87 million
was spent.  Of that some R38 million could not be accounted for or vouchers
produced.  In 1997 R104 million was allocated, only R4 million was spent and
because of the lack of ability of people to manage the programme.  The
unspent RDP funds was forfeited back to the National Department.  In 1998
R104 million was allocated, R35 million was spent and R28 million could not
be accounted for.  An independent audit report was referred to the National
Department but has not yet been made available to the Portfolio Committee,
and we would like to know why.

In the annual report under the nutritional and social development schemes we
read that investigations to the value of R8 million have already been completed,
and 86 organisations have been handed over to the SAPS Commercial Fraud
Unit.  It is unacceptable that programmes to assist our children are being
misused by people for their own gain.

The District Health System is for the delivery of primary health care.  A   5        ""
!
!&&  
decentralised health system is more likely to succeed in delivering appropriate,
equitable, efficient and effective health care to all communities.  The absence
of potable water and sanitation services makes people vulnerable to poor health
which reduces the quality of life and productive capacity of people, and
burdens the health care and welfare services.

That is why I even mentioned in the Welfare Portfolio Committee it is important
that all departments working in programmes with projects of upliftment to
alleviate poverty should have an integrated approach so as so ensure that more
households below the minimum living level can be assisted.

HIV/AIDS, I agree with my colleague across the floor of Parliament.  We have
to take this seriously.  Despite efforts in recent years to educate the public
about the nature of HIV and AIDS, misconceptions are still rife with fear and
ignorance about the conditions, often obscuring the facts.  HIV positive people
continue to be treated as modern day lepers, even in the most informed sectors
of society.  The rate of new infections is estimated to be 1 600 every day. 
AIDS has already claimed 130 000 citizen's lives during 1998.  It is predicted
that almost 250 000 South Africans will die annually within the next three
years, and that figure will rise to 500 000 by the year 2007.  HIV infection can
be prevented by saying no to sex, and staying faithful to your sexual partner.

I would like to thank all the Ministers and their departments for responding to
the questions that I had put about what is being done about AIDS, and what
are they going to do about their staff in the future.  Some of the questions
were very positive, and for others it was just about a fourliner.  So that was
not so good.  But I will still keep working on them.

Another killer is TB, tuberculosis.  Here are some facts and figures.  30 million
people could die from TB in the next 10 years.  TB is the leading infectious
killer of youth and adults.  A third of the world's population is infected with TB
bacillus.  Someone is infected with tuberculosis every second.  About 8 million
people became sick with TB last year.  It is possible that up to 50 million people
may have been infected with drug resistant TB.  TB is a leading killer of
women.  TB likely creates more orphans than any other infectious disease.  TB
is the leading infectious killer of people living with HIV/AIDS.  KwaZulu(c)Natal
is battling with one of the worst TB problems in the country.  It is estimated   6       ""
!
!&&  
that over 30 000 new cases of TB occur in KwaZulu(c)Natal annually.  This
Province has the highest rate of TB/HIV infections, with nearly one half of TB
patients daily infected with TB/HIV.  Approximately 10 000 people die of TB
in South Africa every year.  


  o F j
 

Over 2 000 people became sick with multi(c)drug resistant TB in 1996.  What
can we do about this?  When someone coughs and spits and sneezes
carelessly, tiny droplets of germs are spread in the air and others breathe it in. 


  o F 

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Two minutes left for the hon member to wind up.


  o F 	
 
MRS C E GALEA:
  Many people who travel from work in crowded buses, taxis
and trains, these are ideal conditions for the spread of disease, and if you are
diagnosed to have TB and you are put on medication, do not stop halfway, take
the whole course and continue to take the medicine until you are cured.

Very briefly I would like to just mention that at the meeting of the Domestic
Violence Subcommittee, it was brought to our attention by those present, that
some district surgeons were reluctant to work after hours.  Poor training in
trauma and forensics, a lack of court training, the chain of evidence can be
broken if incorrect procedures are followed, there is not enough information and
notes taken by the district surgeons during examinations.  I trust that
workshops in conjunction with the police will help resolve most of the above
complaints.

In closing, I would like to thank the Minister, his Department, Dr Mtalane and
the Portfolio Committee for the short period that I have been on their
Committee.  We have enjoyed a good relationship, and to the officials who
have helped me serve the people of KwaZulu(c)Natal, I thank you.


  o F |
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mrs Galea.  I will then call upon the hon
member Mr R M Burrows to address the House for seven minutes.  Hon Mr
Burrows.


  o F -
 
MR R M BURROWS: 
 Thank you very much indeed, Chair.  At the outset I
would like to express on behalf of the Democratic Party our thanks to the
professional and non(c)professional staff of the entire Department.  We recognise   7       ""
!
!&&  
the services that have been provided by professionals, including Cuban doctors,
doctors who have had their services extended by a year in order to serve in
areas.  They have done extremely good work, as have all the regular
professionals of the Department.  We also congratulate the non(c)professionals
for the work that they have contributed.

One of the areas that I will be touching on a little later is the relationship
between the private and public sector in health.  We believe that we certainly
in this House must extend the congratulations to the public sector, and to those
within the private sector who are doing good work in this Province.

May I also, Mr Chairman, on behalf of an organisation of which I have been a
member since I was 18 years old, and it is not the Democratic Party, it is the
Natal Blood Transfusion Service.  I wish to thank the KZN Blood Transfusion
Service for the work that they have done during the course of the past year. 
They seldom get public congratulations, but the work that they have done and
the donors who contribute, three, four, five times a year a pint of blood on
each occasion, have kept the thousands, the millions alive in this Province, and
they do it unsung and they do it willingly, without payment.  It is one of the
greatest of our non(c)profit making organisations in South Africa, and particularly
in this Province.

May I also in that connection reflect that it is unfortunate that we have not had
an increase of organ donors because certainly one of the services that can be
contributed to by any person who is in a fit state of health to any other person
is to ensure that they have a signed organ donation document so that their
organs can be used in donations for persons who are in life(c)threatening
conditions.  Here I am thinking particularly of kidneys, a heart, a cornea and so
on, but there are a number of other organs that can also be used.  We certainly
need that to be extended, and I wonder whether the hon the Minister in his
service to the members of the House might not make available to every
member of this House an organ donation form to see that in fact that service
can be contributed to people within this House. 

I too, Mr Chairman, would like to reflect on the threat of HIV/AIDS, because it

  o F -
 is not something 

that we in any political party can ignore.  I go along with
every single word the Minister said, that this should not be a party political   8       ""
!
!&&  
issue, it is an issue on which every citizen in South Africa must be united.  

I sometimes get the feeling, however, that the figures that the Department of
Health utilises, the correct figures I believe, are not those that are spread to
other government departments.  That in fact projections, and particularly
projections about the creation of institutions into the future do not take
sufficient cognisance of the effect of AIDS and AIDS fatalities.  So I am not yet
aware whether those kinds of projections of fatalities are taken into account
when looking at the building of schools, even the building of clinics and the
supply of clinics in particular areas.  It is one where I believe the reality of the
declining life expectancy in this Province has not yet been fully grasped, even
within government departments.

The significance of HIV/AIDS, apart from in the general sense, imposing
significant health costs on the Province as a whole, as the hon the Minister has
referred, must obviously be individualised.  I am glad the leader of the House
has taken the position that he has regarding HIV/AIDS and the importance of
controlling it on an individual basis.  One of the greatest threats I do believe in
the spread of AIDS is the question of multi partners.  But most particularly of
prostitutes, sex workers and the activities that they are carrying out with, for
example, people who are truck drivers, and who are in fact mobile across the
face of this Province.  It is particularly dangerous.  I am told that in fact
HIV/AIDS can be as much as 60% or 70% within that kind of population.  It is
obviously a threatening factor right across the face of the Province.

There is the issue, and I know that it is one that is on the timetable at the
moment, and perhaps the hon Minister in his reply can touch on it, it is the
question of notifiability.  I know it is once again being debated at national level. 
There is a question as to whether a notifiable disease is a hidden disease or a
notifiable disease becomes one in which ...


  o F ^
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  The hon member is left with two minutes to wind up.


  o F "
 
MR R M BURROWS:
  Thank you, Chair.  That issue we have got to touch on. 
I am glad my colleagues have also touched on the issue of TB and the
relationship of death that links that to AIDS.  I will not touch on that any more.
   9        ""
!
!&&  ԌAs far as the relationship between the private sector, hospital and health care,
and the public sector is concerned.  I see, and I am pleased to read what the
Minister is saying in his statement about a better relationship, because I am
afraid in the past three or four years I have come to feel that there is a
confrontational position that has built up.  We need to get past that so that we
see managed health care as a totality, encompassing both public and private
sector where there is in fact the possibility that individuals would select on the
basis of where they wish to go or in fact on the basis of whether the medical
aid is willing to cover them to go into a public or private institution.  

The whole question also arises, is the relationship between persons who
practice in the private sector also practising in public institutions.  It is a
question that was posed to me this morning by a health professional, and she
said: "If I set up in practice, can I also go and work in a State hospital?".  It is
one in which there is a degree of ambivalence.  

It is also noticeable that when we had this issue discussed before the Health
Portfolio Committee and the Finance Committee as one of the key issues, and
I heard it whispered around this House, yes, people will go into public hospitals,
providing you kill the cockroaches.  It is that kind of hotel service, and I know
you have referred to it, the quality assurance within public institutions that has
actually got to make them attractive to people so that what we are not catering
for is the lowest common denominator, which is unfortunately how it is
sometimes seen, but we are catering to a health community across South
Africa where the best hospital care is available.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  The hon member's time is up now.  Thank you.


  o F 
 
MR R M BURROWS:
  Thank you.


  o F |
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  On our list here we have the hon member Mr A Rajbansi
to address the House for four minutes.  The hon Mr Rajbansi.


  o F "
 
MR A RAJBANSI:
  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  When the hon Minister was
concluding his budget speech, he thanked his Department, he thanked others,
but I think the success of a department is dependent upon how good the head
is.  Therefore the Minority Front wants to say one of our treasured assets in   :       ""
!
!&&  
this Province is our Minister of Health.

I want to suggest to the hon Minister, notwithstanding the fact that we have
not found a cure for AIDS, that the Lord has given the human body everything
to tackle anything, and our job is to find it.

In the United States there is a great ayurvedic doctor, the greatest in the world. 
He is a medical doctor, but the American Medical and Dental Council took him
on, and he took them on and won.  

There are many books, I read a book last night of an authoress who was
suffering from an incurable disease, and she refused to die.  There is another
person who had a very successful business and at the age of 42 was given six
months to live.  He refused to die and he is still alive.  What is the trick? 
Sound, good living.  I want to emphasise, let us spend money on nutrition
education.  Let us tell the people you do not have to eat good food and you do
not have to have good exercise only.  If you have not got a good frame of
mind, if you do not have mental rest, and if you do not breathe fresh air, you
still get sick.  All that this lady did was she decided to drink good water, breath
fresh air, eat green leafy vegetables and meditate four times a day for 10
minutes, and she was cured.  Let us spend more money on preventative
methods and on nutrition education in this country, and we will see the
benefits.

If we have to find a department, notwithstanding the comments that were
made, that delivered and that brought services to what I will describe, the heart
of the so(c)called darkness in this country, it is our Ministry and Department of
Health.  In this respect, I want to thank the Chairperson of our Portfolio
Committee and the team led by our eminent Professor Green(c)Thompson.  You
have financial restraints.  Let us look at your clinic programme.  You go to the
rural areas, you go to the informal settlements in the urban areas, people are
smiling because there is delivery of service.  But I want to make an appeal in
the urban areas, there are medical men who are opening hospitals, and they
work out a plan amongst themselves.  You must for nothing admit patients, for
nothing have blood tests and there are cliques working in a cycle.  We would
like strong measures taken against these people.  Open up your hospitals.  

   ;        ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 THE CHAIRPERSON:
  One minute left for the hon member to wind up.  Thank
you.


  o F 
 
MR A RAJBANSI:
  What we need in the urban areas where you have this, shall
I say, institutions, the private hospitals, let us have something in between the
State run hospital and the private hospital.  I know Professor Green(c)Thompson
was suggesting a few years ago, let us run our hospitals like business.  Let us
let them out.  Why can we not have a State run hospital together with a private
hospital?  Let us for example, open up the R K Khan Hospital in Chatsworth and
run it like a private hospital.  Rent part of it so that you can balance your
budget.

To you, Mr Minister, we want to say thank you very, very much for a good
Department, a well run Department, and it is a credit to our Province of
KwaZulu(c)Natal.  The Minority Front supports your vote.  Thank you.


  o F  

 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  I would then therefore call upon
Mrs T Millin, the hon member, to address the House for seven minutes.  Hon
Mrs Millin.


  o F l
 
MRS T E MILLIN:
  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  In spite of the hon Minister's
somewhat upbeat report on the state of health in our Province (c) and
notwithstanding the financial constraints hampering our Province, reports
abound of hospitals unable to cope, young and old dying in hospitals without
even a nurse in attendance, patients turned away, essential services cut due
to lack of funds, no food or water or bed linen in many instances, no or too few
ambulances, and hospital staff often fearing for their lives and security and so
on.  

We have just celebrated Human Rights Day, when in particular we remember
the less than 100 people who lost their lives at Sharpeville in the early 1960s,
and yet we are not consistent in remembering also the over 55 000 plus
innocent unborn infants killed by legal abortion nationally, since abortion on
demand was legalised in February 1997...those, whose right to life, as
enshrined in our Constitution, were nevertheless denied that right.   <       ""
!
!&&Ԍ(tm)We all know how the scourge of AIDS is running rampant, and I make no
apologies for addressing this as nearly everybody else has, apart from the
rampant crime and unemployment in our country, undoubtedly AIDS is the
biggest disaster to hit the world, let alone our country.  We all know that AIDS
is running rampant in our country, with a recent antenatal survey sponsored by
UNICEF, indicating that one out of two pregnant women tested at a Durban
clinic were infected with HIV/AIDS.  In fact, about 3,5 million people are now
living with AIDS in South Africa, with at least 1 200 becoming infected daily.

What kind of figures are we going to have to witness, before something really
decisive will be done in an attempt to curb the AIDS holocaust?  We have seen
endless, albeit well(c)meant HIV/AIDS education and awareness campaigns,
counselling, distribution of condoms, including stapled ones, road shows and
puppet shows, and with public health officials attempting to inform society of
the attendant risks.  

Yet, in spite of all this, people continue at an alarming rate to become infected
with AIDS.  It is, unfortunately, no exaggeration to state that the public health
system in this country has failed to protect society from the epidemic spread
of the HIV virus, simply because certain misguided politicians clamoured to
favour non(c)discrimination of the infected at the expense of the rights of the
uninfected members of society.  Thus, by protecting the individual rights of
some 10, 20, 100 or so individuals, we now face the catastrophe of millions
infected.

The developed world has accepted that the public health response has been
inappropriate to say the least, in curbing HIV/AIDS, and that it should be
declared a notifiable disease.  Here I would like to add my voice to that of the
hon member Mr Burrows.  It must be declared a notifiable disease in order to
counsel the individual, as well as their contacts, and providing whatever means
of affordable support possible.  AIDS activists now argue that we should have
followed a more appropriate public health response a long time back, whereas
now it is too late to trace or follow up and counsel some 3,5 million plus
people.

As if all this were not enough, we in South Africa now have to cope with
another deadly scourge, and it has already been referred to by the hon Minister   =       ""
!
!&&  
and a member opposite.  That is the scourge of malaria which, except for areas
near our north eastern borders, was considered a disease long since overcome,
and yet we are reliably informed that incidents of malaria are spreading further
southwards, to the extent that the Mercury of 23 March, just the other day,
reports that a cerebral malaria victim apparently contracted the disease while
on holiday in Umdloti on the North Coast, and who has since died while her
husband is fighting for his life in a Johannesburg hospital.  

We are further cheered by the news in the Mercury of 19 March, in an article
reporting on the malaria conference already referred to by the hon Minister, that
the traditional drugs and treatment such as chloroquine and quinine and failed
to help malaria patients, and with the cost of new drugs rendering them
unaffordable.  Yet, precious funds are squandered on ill(c)considered anti(c)tobacco
legislation, not to mention the Sarafina scandal already referred to, and the
fraud and corruption already mentioned in this House.  It is really not a very
cheering scenario.

I would urge the Minister to addresses these very, very urgent issues and try
not to be quite so rosy about everything, because we all know the reality is far
from being rosy.

Nevertheless, I have to say that I support the budget that has been given to the
Health Department.  I thank you very much, Mr Chairman.


  o F 0
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mrs Millin.  We have on our list the hon
member Mrs J M Downs to address the House for seven minutes.  The hon Mrs
Downs.  Thank you.


  o F |
 
MRS J M DOWNS:
  Thank you, Mr Chair.  I am going to confine my speech to
two subjects.  One being the district surgeons and the second, with the rest of
the hon members in this House, AIDS.

I would just like to repeat some the figures that I gave during the Welfare
debate two days ago.  14 223 children were raped in this year.  679 were
subject to sodomy.  171 to incest.  3 500 odd to indecent assault.  750 sexual   >       ""
!
!&&  
offences. 3 500 odd serious assault cases.  3 000, nearly 4 000 common
assault cases and so on and so on.  I have referred to those specifically for a
particular reason.

In the fight against crimes against children and women the district surgeon is
a very important link.  Every crime of this nature has to go to a district surgeon
for forensic evidence and forensic reporting, and the district surgeon then
makes himself or herself available in court to report on these cases.  In our
committee on the prevention of violence against women and children, we
actually picked up some very serious problems with district surgeons in this
Province, and I am raising them in this House because I believe that it is vitally
important that this issue be addressed.

The police in their priority performance issues have put rape and sexual crimes
against children as one of their top three priorities.  Unfortunately, in the Health
Department this is not a priority.  I understand the reasons for it, but I cannot
agree with and condone why it is happening.  We need to actually do
something about it.  If a district surgeon's evidence is incorrectly given in court,
if it is incorrectly collected when a crime occurs, and if people are incorrectly
treated by a district surgeon there are a number of results.  In our committee
there were several issues that were reported about the district surgeons, and
granted, they were not mostly against the district surgeons who are fully
employed by the Department, but ones who are contracted on a contractual
basis because there is no place for full(c)time district surgeons.  There were a
number of issues that were raised before this committee which have not been
dealt with by the Health Department.

In one instance, a 15 year old girl was raped so brutally that she had a vaginal
tear.  This child was taken to a district surgeon who marked the child as not
having been raped.  The CPU officer then took the child to another district
surgeon, thank goodness, against protocol and law actually, and the second
district surgeon then marked the child as having been raped. The child then had
to be hospitalised and actually have that tear repaired.  That is how brutal the
rape was.  This particular incident, a letter was written by the police to the
Health Department, and to my knowledge, as yet still no action has been taken. 
The district surgeon is still contracted to the Health Department, and the police
have reported that this particular district surgeon, it was not the only incident,   ?       ""
!
!&&  
there have been many others.  This was verified by Child Line and by another
welfare organisation.  This needs to be attended to.

There was another incident where a child was slapped because it was
hysterical after having been assaulted and raped.  Normal reaction, but totally
unacceptable behaviour by a district surgeon.  There have been times when
district surgeons up in the Empangeni/Zululand area first asks: "Is the child
black or white".  If the child is white they get immediate treatment.  The
district surgeon comes out after hours and sees to the child.  If the child is
black, the child is referred to office hours.  This is totally unacceptable.  That
man must be fired, finished.  It is unacceptable to treat any child like that.  This
has been reported to the Health Department.

The problem also is that district surgeons, as in the case of the 15 year old
child, when they report that no rape has taken place, even if an assault has
taken place and it is later found out, the police go upon what the district
surgeon's report.  If the report is not adequate the docket is closed and the
case is not continued with.  It actually does not continue.  So later on if new
evidence arises, and in fact it is proved that an assault or whatever had taken
place, the docket is closed.

I would like to propose this.  I know that the Health Department is in the
process of restructuring, and they are talking about bringing in nurses to act as
forensic officers in these cases, but I was told in the committee by your
Department that this programme is going to take 10 years or more to fulfil.  


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Two more minutes left for the member to wind up.


  o F 
 
MRS J M DOWNS:
  Currently in the Durban Metro/Ilembe area, there are three
district surgeons, only three, to serve all those people and all of those cases. 
We need to know that we are going to secure convictions.  Rapists and child
molesters get away with it because they do not get convicted, and a very
important role that is played by district surgeons, the Justice Department in this
committee also told us that the district surgeons are not adequately trained to
give evidence in court.  The evidence often is not strong enough just through
lack of training.  They also say that there is only one forensic laboratory for all
police cases.  One forensic laboratory in the whole of South Africa, which is in   @       ""
!
!&&  
Pretoria.  All of this evidence has to be sent to Pretoria and the chain of
evidence has broken.

I understand that ballistics and so on, we cannot deal with, but in the Health
Department, I believe that it is possible to do the testing.  Maybe you can
answer me in your reply, Mr Minister, with regard to the issues of rape and
child abuse.  I believe that the Health Department laboratories are equipped to
be able to deal with those.  You can confirm or deny that.  I really believe that
this is an issue that this Department needs to deal with.  I know that
Commissioner Serfontein has written a letter to the Department of Health
asking them for their assistance in these issues, because this is a key
breakdown in securing convictions in rape and abuse cases.  If we are what we
say we are, and we really care about these issues, then I think that we need
to raise it.

It seems that there is not going to be enough time for me to talk about AIDS,
but I would like to say this one thing; that it is morally indefensible that rape
victims are not given anti HIV treatment, nor are they advised by district
surgeons.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  The time is up for the member.  Thank you.


  o F l
 
MRS J M DOWNS:
  They are not advised by district surgeons what to do. 
They need to be given AZT, 3TC, Retrovia and they need to be told to use
envirocidal douches and they need to be helped.  There is a gum test which..... 


  o F 
 
DIE VOORSITTER:
  U tyd is om.


  o F 
 
MRS J M DOWNS:
  Thank you very much.


  o F |
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  I will therefore call upon the hon member Mr Mkhwanazi
to address the House for four minutes.  Hon Mr Mkhwanazi.


  o F "
 
MR J D MKHWANAZI:
  Ngiyabonga, Mgcini Sihlalo.  [Thank you, Chairperson]. 
Like all the others, I want to congratulate the Minister and the members of his
staff and his Department for their efforts to keep all of us alive.  Without them,
and without the Department some of us would have died.   A       ""
!
!&&Ԍ(tm)Actions talk louder than words.  When we look around this House we see that
they were very busy and put up these beautiful banners as a sign of their
concern and commitment.  I hope the Minister will give some of these banners
to us so that we can warn the people.  The communities have been warned. 
Thank you for this, although I am worried about this little one with little hearts,
a lot of hearts.  I do not know what the meaning of these hearts are.  I am not
asking the Minister to answer.


  o F 

 
AN HON MEMBER:
  What about your other presents?


  o F 
 
MR J D MKHWANAZI:
  Well, the other presents, some of us will use, and
others, some of them we cannot use.  It is all in the game of life.  Thank you
very much, Mr Minister.

Mr Minister, may I repeat my earlier hue and cry.  The health services in the
Province and in the country still like other services divide us, the nation, into
two nations.  There are the haves who have always had, and who continue to
have.  


  o F 
 

There are the have nots who have had nothing and who continue not to have
anything.  For instance, the government hospitals are only for poor people. 
Some people have said, Mr Minister, your hospitals are death waiting rooms. 
I think something must be done about it.  I am afraid, in fact we are gravitating
into an American society where, if you do not have a medical card, even when
you have an accident the ambulance leaves you there because the first thing
they ask is: "Have you got a medical card".  Even when you go to the hospital
or to the doctor, they ask you: "Do you have a medical card".  I think the
Minister must look into this because it intimidates people, because medical
cards are regarded as things for the rich and not for the ordinary people.
Ngidluleke Baba Sihlalo, ngiye kwi(c)AIDS lokhu okuthiwa ingculazi.  Awu!

  o F |
 Bakithi. 

 [Let me proceed.  Mr Chairperson, the issue of AIDS.  "Oh! my

  o F ^
 people], this is a very serious matter.  

I think we are happy that we all agree on this.  If we had our way, we would
have all attacked this lion and shot it, killed it and even ate it or burnt it.

Ibhubesi leli Mphathisihlalo, nawe Dokotela Khabazela elihleli emnyango   B        ""
!
!&&  
wempilo.  Libheke okuthi kuyeza nje likunqonfe, likudle, likulahle le.

Now, sizophila kanjani, abantwana bethu bazophila kanjani laba abakhulayo,
ngoba phela bakithi asikhulume iqiniso sibadala sonke la.  


  o F j
 
TRANSLATION:
  This is a lion, Chairperson and Dr Khabazela, sitting at the
threshold of life.  It is just waiting to crush, eat and discard anything that
comes near it.

Now, how are we going to survive.  How are our children who are still growing
up going to survive.  People, let us be honest, we are all adults here.  T/E


  o F 

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  One more minute left for the hon member to wind up.


  o F \

 
MR J D MKHWANAZI:
 UThixo wapha thina ukujabula ngempilo kuphela, ayi
izilwane.  Manje umangabe singasezukuphila, singasezukuthola abantwana,
ngoba abantwana batholakala laphaya kuhlezi ibhubesi emnyango liyanqomfa.

Akusetshenzwe bakithi sihlangane sonke, asihlangane uDokotela uMkhize acele
oDokotela beSintu, noDokotela abeSilungu balithole (c) zonke lezinto enisinika
zono nithi asibambise izivimbi azizukusiza ekugcineni kwelanga.

Into okufanele itholakale, akutholakale into yokubamba ibhubesi elihlezi
emnyango wempilo.  Ngiyabonga.


  o F 
 


TRANSLATION:
 God gave us the gift of enjoying life, which He did not give
animals.  Now we are no longer going to live, we will no longer have children
because when children are born, they are crushed by the lion sitting at the
threshold.

Le us all work together my people.  Let us unite.  Dr Mkhize should ensure that
traditional healers and doctors practising western medicine get together to cure
this.  All these other things you are giving us, saying that in the meantime we
prevent it, will not work at the end of the day.  What is necessary is something
that will control the lion sitting on the threshold of life.  Thank you.  T/E


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, hon member.  On our list the next speaker is   C        ""
!
!&&  
the hon member Advocate Madondo to address the House for eight minutes. 
The hon member Advocate Madondo.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  

Hear! Hear!


  o F j
 
ADV M I MADONDO:
  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I am very sorry that what I
am going to say is in the absence of the hon Mr Gwala, who is calling for the
removal of Dr Nkosazana Zuma for the transgressions of her sister.  I would like
to remind him that we are living in a democratic country where the Constitution
is the supreme law of the country.  We are no longer in the heydays of Ulundi
where people were arbitrarily dismissed.  [LAUGHTER]

Mr Chairman, I would like to commend the Minister of Health, Dr Zweli Mkhize
for his outstanding performance over the last five years.  More than R240
million has been utilised in the building and upgrading of clinics, more
particularly in the rural areas.  We will remember that these clinics were built
in spite of fierce opposition by some forces of darkness, playing some cheap
politicking, so that they could turn around and say: "Look, the ANC
Government has failed to live up to the promises which were made prior to the
1994 elections".

Some, like the hon Mr Gwala, would also mouthfully say that there is a lack of
supply of medication and staff and so on, but I would like to inform him that
the clinics are now well staffed, well supplied with medication and operating
without straining the budget of the Department, that is an achievement.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
ADV M I MADONDO:
  Hon Inkosi Mathaba, will you please give me an ear.


  o F |
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Order please!  Order, hon members.


  o F @
 
ADV M I MADONDO:
  The other thing we are pleading for, uKhabazela, is the
electrification of the clinics in the rural areas, because that will help the people
to have the best equipment for their treatment.

We have the patient bus shuttle service operating at Nongoma and other far   D        ""
!
!&&  
outlying areas.  That is an achievement.  This was unheard of during the
heydays of the apartheid era, that there would be buses transporting patients
from far outlying areas to the business centres to receive the best treatment in
the Province.


  o F j
 

We also have the District Health system which encourages and promotes the
involvement and participation of the community in the decision(c)making and in
the programme planning.  This was also unheard of during the apartheid era,
because then we only saw the people coming in and they built clinics, or
whatever structure without consulting the people resident in the area.  But now
the people have a say in the administration of their primary health care system. 
That also facilitates the access to the best equipment in the area, because the
person would be transferred or referred from the outlying area to the cities
where that patient gets the best service needed at that time.

We have also the nutrition programme that started with the advent of the ANC
Government.  Prior to that there were no nutrition programme schemes at
schools.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
ADV M I MADONDO:
 Kwakungadliwa, mina ngize ngibe ngaka angikaze ngidle

  o F l
 esikoleni,  okokuqala nje kufika no(c)ANC bayadla eMsinga.  [There was no food. 
Old as I am, I have never eaten at school.  This is the first time.  This thing was
introduced by the ANC.  They are eating at Msinga].


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Order please!  Order!  Order please!


  o F |
 
ADV M I MADONDO:
  Your Ministry, uKhabazela, has tried by all means to
purge that scheme of all fraud, corruption and irregularities which has been
inherent in this system, because some people tried to turn this system into their
own business, running shops and all those things, instead of feeding the
children.

We have the traditional healers who for the first time have been recognised by   E        ""
!
!&&  
the health system, and they have been integrated into the health system, into
the health service as well.  So now the people are getting the most affordable
and equitable treatment they have ever thought of.  That is the work of the
ANC.


  o F j
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F .
 
ADV M I MADONDO:
  Lastly, I will come to the administering of AZT.  We
have talked about AZT.  There is a cry for the administering of AZT to pregnant
women in order to reduce the risk of the transmission of HIV to the unborn
baby.  But that has not been sufficiently scientifically proven that it 100% or
99% reduces the risk of the transmission of the HIV.  Secondly, the worst thing
about it, it is very expensive to administer such a drug to pregnant women.  

But we find people who want to please the DP and the likes, calling for the
removal of Dr Nkosazana Zuma because she has failed or she has refused to
administer this drug to the pregnant women.  We also find even our African
brothers and sisters saying that, without considering it, without giving it much
thought as to why she is reluctant.  I have never heard that she blatantly
refused to administer this drug.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  The time is up for the hon member.  Thank you.


  o F N
 
ADV M I MADONDO:
  But I am not protected.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  I would therefore ask the hon member Mr F Rehman to
address the House for seven minutes.  Hon Mr Rehman.


  o F 
 
MR M F REHMAN:
  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I thank the hon
Minister of Health, Dr Zweli Mkhize, for presenting this budget here today to
this hon House.  I would also like to express my sincere appreciation to the
Secretary(c)General, Professor Green(c)Thompson, Dr Baloyi, Mr Conradie, Mrs
Skewiyiya and my dear friend Carol Beyers.

Before I commence, I would first like to correct my colleague the hon Advocate
Madondo, that the ANC was not responsible for the building of the clinics, as
the hon Minister of Health is part of the Cabinet of KwaZulu(c)Natal, and   F       ""
!
!&&  
therefore the Government of KwaZulu(c)Natal was responsible for building these
clinics.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F j
 
MR M F REHMAN:
  Thank you.  


  o F .
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Can you take your seat, hon member.  Can we hear from
Mr J Jeffery.


  o F 
 
MR J H JEFFERY:
  Can I ask the hon member if he will take a question?


  o F 

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Can the hon member take a question?


  o F \

 
MR M F REHMAN:
  Mr Chairman, if I have time at the end of my speech I will
definitely take his question.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you.  The member can continue.


  o F 
 
MR M F REHMAN:
  Thank you.  The IFP's policy on health is access to a
reasonable level of health care as a fundamental human right which is
entrenched in the Constitution of South Africa.  Although health services in
certain parts of the country have become more accessible due to the provision
of additional clinics, the overall quality of health care is perceived to be
declining.

Provincial Government should be the principal tier responsible for ensuring
health care service delivery to the population, and local government should be
responsible for the delivery of primary health care services within their areas of
jurisdiction, and should, on negotiations, be appointed as agents of the
provinces for the delivery of such services outside their areas of jurisdiction in
cases where acceptable levels of competence do not exist.


  o F "
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS.


  o F -
 
MR M F REHMAN:
  Mr Chairman, sir, would you please ...
   G        ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Behave yourselves, hon members.  Behave as hon
members.  Thank you.


  o F 
 
MR M F REHMAN:
  We from the IFP believe that the State should provide free
basic health care for pregnant women, children, sufferers of communicable
diseases, and selectively targeted programmes, that is AIDS and immunisations. 
At this point, I must say that I am disappointed with the National Minister of
Health for refusing AZT treatment to pregnant women.  We are all aware that
this treatment would prevent 50% of pregnant women transmitting the HIV
virus to the unborn child.  I believe that free health care should be available to
those who cannot afford to pay for this service.

I have on many occasions reiterated that besides policies, a sort of means test
must be in place so that we prevent those who are financially secure to go
through our out(c)patients departments.  The selfish use of our hospitals by the
rich has deprived thousands of the very needy who need specialised care, basic
treatment due to lack of funds.  I have visited Ngwelezane Hospital,
Benedictine, Catherine Booth, Stanger, Prince Mshiyeni, Addington, King
Edward, Grey's, Ladysmith, Dundee, Vryheid and Newcastle hospitals.  I
therefore have firsthand knowledge of what is happening at these hospitals. 
I hope the Department will use the R25 million available for maintenance to
replace some of the hospital instruments which are either outdated or rusted. 
Some of the buildings need urgent attention as well.

Mr Chairman, whilst I understand the financial constraints, it is not acceptable
to me that a seriously ill heart patient from Dundee, Newcastle or Madadeni
Hospital has to wait for three to four hours for an ambulance to arrive.  This
delay is mainly due to the fact that Newcastle, Dundee and Madadeni have to
phone Ladysmith for approval for an ambulance to be despatched from their
own premises.  I say this because Dr Giy, the superintendent at Dundee
Hospital, phoned Ladysmith for one of his patients who had suffered cardiac
failure on 9 March at 12.00 p.m. and the ambulance only arrived at 4.00 p.m.

This type of bureaucracy cannot be tolerated.  I definitely put the blame fully
on the Department, as the ambulances are parked at each hospital, but have
to wait for two to four hours for approval.  It is said that only in South Africa
a pizza will get to your house faster than an ambulance.  I hope the hon   H       ""
!
!&&  
Minister will be able to give me a reasonable answer to this type of
bureaucracy.

I also need answers from the hon Minister to the fact that some hospitals are
charging the pensioners R86 to be treated after hours and over weekends. 
Whilst I understand there are many patients with no serious ailments visiting
our hospitals, there are, however, some legitimate cases who are refused
treatment.  These are our pensioners and the disabled.  I must hasten to
mention that there are overzealous officials who are imposing the policy of the
hospital, as they have been instructed by head office to generate income.

Also of concern to our Indian patients, is that most of these hospitals do not
cater for vegetarian and halaal foods.


  o F \

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Two minutes left for the member to wind up.


  o F  

 
MR M F REHMAN:
  I hope the hon Minister will take urgent steps to remedy
this problem.  I would also like the hon Minister to investigate some district

  o F 
 surgeons who refuse to perform post(c)mortems on patients who were involved
in accidents over holidays and weekends.

Mr Chairman, in conclusion, I would like to appeal to the hon Minister not to
make the issue of Newcastle and Madadeni Hospital a political one, and not to
ignore the cries of the people of Newcastle.  Let the people of Newcastle
decide on this important issue.  I therefore support the budget.  Thank you.


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, hon member.  I would then therefore call
upon Mr J C Matthee to address the House for four minutes.  Mr Matthee,
thank you.


  o F |
 
MR J H JEFFERY:
  Mr Chair, sorry.  I had asked the hon member if he would
take a question, and he said he would if he had time, and I see he does have
time.  Can I put a question to him?


  o F -
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  His time is up, Mr Jeffery.  Mr Matthee.


  o F 
 
MR J C MATTHEE:
  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, we on this side   I        ""
!
!&&  
of the House would like to add our congratulations and our thanks to the staff,
and I will say in particular to the nurses because they are at the coalface of all
our hospitals and clinics.  Sadly today, it is not a calling any more, it is a career. 
I agree with the hon Dr Mtalane when she referred earlier that more discipline
should come into our nursing staff, and we sincerely hope that as the time goes
by, that will certainly come to pass.  But certainly we believe that nursing is a
calling, and it is only dedicated people who can look after the ill in our country.

I would like, with the few minutes I have, just to mention a few issues about
AIDS.  The hon the Minister in the other place mentioned that to administer
AZT is too expensive.  That is to the mother before birth, and to the child after
birth.  The hon the Minister went out of her way to push through the Tobacco
Bill, because she said this was going to save lives in South Africa, right.  This
is then a contradiction.  Either this is playing politics, which the hon the
Minister, and I agree with him, we should not bring politics into health, but the
hon the Minister in Cape Town is bringing politics into this whole issue.  In the
one breath she says we should encourage people to have a healthy life, and on
the other hand, she says that we cannot afford R400 for an injection for
babies.  I sincerely hope that the hon the Minister will give us his point of view,
his policy for this Province as to whether they are going to administer that drug
to mothers prior to the birth and to the babies after birth.  I would appreciate
that, sir.

The experts tell us that by the year 2008 and 2010 we are going to experience
a wave of death in this Province.  We are talking in the region of 1 500 plus
deaths per day.  If that does not shake anybody, then I do not know what will. 
What earthquake will.  Because if we do not make a concerted effort, and I
believe that this drug, yes, is still being tested, but still, there are experts who
tell us that it does reduce the death rate by 50%.  At least that is a step in the
right direction.  I sincerely hope that your Department will do everything in its
power to curb this monster, this silent monster, that is creeping up at our
doorstep every day.


  o F "
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  One more minute left for the member to wind up.  Thank
you.


  o F 
 
MR J C MATTHEE:
  And we do not even realise the incredible death rate that   J        ""
!
!&&  
is staring us in the face.  The other issue I would like to mention, sir, is the
question of the eye clinic in Addington.  A member of my constituency came
to me and said that they had told her that she has to wait three years to have
a cataract removal operation.  I personally went there, and after enquiring, the
doctor then said: "Yes, well we can do it".  Three weeks later she was
admitted and she had the operation.  I just want to make an appeal to the
Minister that there are people who are not literate.  They find it very difficult
to understand.  This lady was totally misinformed and I request the hon the
Minister to investigate this issue at Addington.  Thank you.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr Matthee.  I will therefore call upon the hon
member Mr F Dlamini to address the House for 11 minutes.  The hon Mr
Dlamini.  Thank you.


  o F  

 
MR F DLAMINI:
  Thank you very much, Chairperson.  Mr Minister, I would like
to echo the appreciation expressed by all the members that have spoken before
me in this House.

Khabazela sithi ume nje, Gcwabe kaZihlandla, wena okhanya omasi esiswini. 
Sithemba ukuthi laba abatolikayo bazosho ukuthi ukukhanya amasi esiswini

  o F l
 kusho ukuthi i(c)transparency into endala. [UHLEKO]   [Khabazela, stand firm
Gcwabe Kazihlandla, wena okhanya amasi esiswini.  We hope that those who
are translating will say that ukukhanya amasi esiswini means that transparency

  o F 
 has been here for a long time].  [LAUGHTER].  


  o F 
 

The display of banners we see around here speaks volumes about what this
Department has done, and we would therefore like to heap accolades on the
management of the Department of Health for the work that they have done.

Budget time is a time to scrutinise how departments have used public funds for
the benefit of the people that elected the Government.  In doing so, we need
to look at the achievements of the Department of Health, both at national and
at provincial level, and give a fair assessment.  We have got to make sure that
we look at the budget through the eyes of the people who voted us into
Government, and bearing in mind the constraints that we have in terms of the   K       ""
!
!&&  
budget.

Through budgetary control, there is a shift from high tech regional and central
hospital emphasis to primary health care.  A very welcome move in line with
the policy directives.  We specifically commend the Department of Health for
an increase in community health services, and an introduction of integrated
nutrition services in programme 2.  The effect of this shift will perhaps be
visible in a few years to come.  

There are concrete policy issues like community service for young doctors
which has been in effect for three months only, but is already generally
considered a success.  Those who argued against community service for
doctors did not have the faintest idea of how young doctors, exposed to the
new wave of transformation, would react.  These people's argument clearly
demonstrated a lack of interest in our previously disadvantaged communities. 
It worried me to see that during these debates members of the previously
disadvantaged communities joined the chorus of those who had basked in the
glory of apartheid with its differential treatment of communities.  The budget
of the National Department of Health should ensure funding the creation and
sustenance of the District Health System which will help to entrench the
primary health care system.  It is most encouraging to hear our Minister here
confirming that the District Health System is progressing very well.

The programme of building more clinics and community health centres is

  o F 0
 progressing well.  This is music to the ear.  We have heard 

from our Minister
of Health that in our Province all completed clinics have been commissioned. 
We congratulate the Department for beating the rest of the provinces in this
regard.  We hope the National Department of Health will assist provinces with
funding for staffing and acquisition of equipment for these clinics.

I have been amazed by the critics who have in the past ridiculed the
Department of Health for building many clinics and failing to open them.  Any
rational thinking South African should be concerned about how to bring health
nearer to the people, especially in the deep rural areas.

We welcome the increase in the programme 3 of the National Department of
Health's budget estimate, which includes an allocation to the Government AIDS   L       ""
!
!&&  
Action Plan.

Sizwile laphana uBaba uMphephethwa ethi ukugijima kakhulu akufunakali. 
Inkinga enye esiyibonayo ukuthi izibalo zikhuluma ukuthi baningi kakhulu abantu
besifazane abaphethwe ingculazi mhlawumbe kudalwa ikona lokhu ukuthi
sisengabantu abangadingekile ababizwa ngamasoka.


  o F .
 


TRANSLATION:  
We heard Mr Mphephethwa, over there, saying that moving
too fast is not good.  Another problem we are detecting is that statistics state
that there are too many women with AIDS.  Maybe it is because we still have
these unnecessary men who are said to be popular with women and therefore
have many sweethearts.  T/E

We also commend the Health Ministry for budgeting for the co(c)ordination and
devolution to the provinces of the NGO funding component of the HIV/AIDS
and sexually transmitted disease programme, and implementation of integrated
components.  This indicates the National Department's astute awareness of the
potential role the NGOs are and can play in preventing and fighting AIDS and
sexually transmitted diseases.  Money must be spent on programmes that seek
to de-stigmatise the HIV/AIDS epidemic.  We recognise the concerted efforts
of our Provincial Health Department for all that they have done to create
awareness and fighting HIV/AIDS.  Mr Minister, the package content that you
have given us, I suppose will last from year to year.

The concern about health workers has also been very encouraging, as
expressed by the Minister.  The very important role played by these health
workers can never be over(c)emphasised.  In order to make people's lives better,
we need to ensure that they are educated and given the necessary health care
skills for a healthy living.  Another vital role of the community health workers
is the early identification, intervention and referral of social problems and
thereby provide a valuable support system for the Department of Welfare.  


  o F @
 

To illustrate this, community health workers identify children with disabilities,
abused children, family violence, and poverty stricken families.  They therefore
facilitate multi(c)sectoral collaboration with other government departments and
NGOs.
   M        ""
!
!&&  ԌChairperson, I shall not have done justice to the Health debate if I did not say
a word on the Tobacco Products Control Amendment Bill, which has just been
mentioned by my hon colleague on this side.  During the debate on this Bill, we
had the pleasurable experience of initiating amendments to the Bill as KwaZuluNatal delegates to the NCOP, and these were accepted by all provinces.  The
disappointment came when this House actually rejected the whole Bill, and
voted against the Bill, towards the end.  That was very, very disappointing. 
There was a clear distinction between those who are in the Government for the

  o F 

 maintenance of the status quo, on the one hand, and on the other hand, you
heard the voices of transformation for a better life for the people of South
Africa and its future generations.  Besides this transformational view, the move
to pass the Tobacco Products Control Amendment Bill is consistent with the
guidelines of the World Health Organisation. 

In 1988 Netherlands passed a law that prohibited tobacco advertising on
television, radio, billboards and cinemas.  In 1991 Denmark did the same.  In
1994 Sweden prohibited tobacco advertising.  In 1996 Norway followed with
a prohibition of advertising on radio and television.  I have quoted these
Scandinavian countries because they are countries most concerned about the
welfare of the people, and promotion of health in accordance with the World
Health Organisation.  


  o F l
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Two minutes left for the hon member to wind up.


  o F 0
 
MR F DLAMINI:
  These countries are amongst the 20 countries that responded
to the call to world governments by the World Health Organisation to ban
tobacco advertising, sponsorship and promotions.  South Africa is now
responding to this call and also implementing measures first announced by the
National Health Minister in 1994.  People opposed to this Bill often cite liquor
and HIV/AIDS and all fatalities related to these.  In simple terms, what they are
saying is that if you do not die of liquor and related fatalities or HIV/AIDS, then
you must make sure you die of smoking.  Unfortunately, smoking kills other
innocent souls who neither have AIDS, and do not drink or smoke.  How
selfish.


  o F -
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS
   N        ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
MR F DLAMINI:
  Chairperson, my colleague the hon Dr Luthuli has already given
statistics on the effects of 3(c)Aziod(c)3 Deoxythymidine commonly known as
AZT, and therefore I am not going to dwell on that.

We hope that all the research to find a cure or harnessing AIDS will yield results
pretty soon.  We also sincerely hope that positive research will help reduce the
cost of fighting AIDS.  We commend the Department of Health for a continuing
high quality performance over the years.  I thank you.


  o F 

 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 	
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, hon member.  I will therefore call upon the
hon member Mrs O E Ford to address the House for seven minutes.  Hon
member Mrs Ford.


  o F >

 


MRS O E FORD:
  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  I would like to congratulate the
Minister and his Department who have "survived" on an extremely limited
budget.


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION


  o F 
 
MRS O E FORD:
  Can you not hear me, sir?  Well, there is a gremlin in this little
box.  You can set the timer now, sir.  

I would like to congratulate the Minister and his Department who have
"survived" on an extremely limited budget.  At this point, I want to state that
the Health Department is no different from the other departments, it falls under
the priorities of the Finance Committee, and consequently has to meet its
budget.  We also know that certain conditions are set nationally, I want to state
quite frankly at the outset it is very well to keep reiterating that we have a
restricted budget and so on, but rather: are there alternate means of funding
the Department?  When one looks at funding within the Department, might I
add all departments, we have to look at overspending, fraud, corruption and
fiscal control.

Take for instance our troubled National Minister Nkosazana Zuma ...
   O        ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  INTERJECTION


  o F 
 
MRS O E FORD:
  Well, if you listen you will hear, whose controversial policies
created shambles in nearly all government hospitals.  Her stated objective
seems to be to provide health for all, which is very sound and noble, but if one
looks at her actions, it tells a different story.  It is obvious that democracy is
different from a dictatorship in terms of decision(c)making.  Gradually, since
1994, National Government has began amending the rules of the game so that
it begins to fit into the category of governments that are accountable to no
one: this is particularly true of Dr Zuma's efforts to control health care.  Her
funds or so(c)called "mismanaged" funds could be easily used right here in
KwaZulu(c)Natal to save people's lives.  If people would just keep their voices
down, sir, I would not have to shout.

As we talk of the health budget, I wish to remind colleagues that health should
not simply be an absence of diseases, but should include the psychological and
spiritual component as well.  Also the access to a reasonable level of health
care is a fundamental human right which is entrenched in our Constitution.


  o F 
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  What do you know about human rights?


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Order please!


  o F N
 
MRS O E FORD:
  The Health Department will have to put in place certain
administrative and management systems that will allow a saving without
impinging on health care delivery.  At this point, Mr Chairman, we cannot
simply say, "Cut this service" or "Cut that service" (c) this is too simplistic and
generalised.  Budgetary cuts have to be made where there will be the lowest
impact or else the consequences will be disastrous as I will show in the later
part of my speech.  Last year, the hon Minister in his budget speech stated the
following:

 X""
 Ambulance and emergency medical services which is still one of the
best services in the world and one in which people and equipment are
pushing the extreme limits of efficiencies."

He further stated that he shudders to think what would happen without their   P        ""
!
!&&  
services, a year later, the scenario has changed somewhat.  I wonder how he
feels now?

On Tuesday, 24 March 1999, the Daily News had the following headline:
"Ambulance services lashed".  Severe budget cuts together with alleged abuse
by the Health Department has prompted the Department of Health to reclassify
emergencies.  The Department has also sent out a ruling that maternity cases
are not to be considered an emergency!  This really is totally unacceptable and
discriminatory (c) what about child birth complications, of which you people with
the big mouths would not know, except maybe the hon Mrs Blose?  So,
gentlemen, listen please.


  o F 

 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F \

 
MRS O E FORD:
  Birth complications, obstructed labour, caesarean sections. 
How does one classify these?


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Order please!


  o F 
 
MRS O E FORD:
  Mr Chairman, please, you have been saying "order please" to
the same members in this House for days.  I think it is time they got flung out.


  o F 0
 
AN HON MEMBER:
  Red card.


  o F 
 
MRS O E FORD:
  Furthermore, ambulance crews have been instructed to
concentrate on emergencies such as gunshot victims and emergency transfers. 
We should know a lot about the gunshot victims.  These policies really smack
of discrimination and partiality.  What the Department is asking is that people,
the paramedics, be selective when dealing with people's lives (c) surely this does
not mean that the Minister has the health of the Province as his priority.  The
Minister is asking that ambulance and paramedic officials use their judgement
to decide on the severity of the case.  No doubt the ANC is quick to forget its
promises and simply manipulate policies to cover its own inadequacies.  Really,
this type of discriminating behaviour cannot be tolerated.  Paramedics cannot
be allowed to play doctors or even God for that matter.   Q       ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS.


  o F 
 
MRS O E FORD:
  I ask for your protection, sir.  Mr Chairman, last week, a
woman delivered her baby on a pavement.  A resident called the ambulance
services, who only arrived hours later, after midday, the call was made in the
early hours of the morning. 


  o F .
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F 

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Order please!  I am not prepared to call members by
names.


  o F 

 
MRS O E FORD:
  The Health Department's response was that pregnant women
have nine months to prepare for delivery and hence should make the necessary
arrangements to get to a clinic in time.  Clearly then, what we find happening
is the Health Department setting down minimum standards for ensuring delivery
of selected services. 

The arrival of the Cuban doctors have curbed the shortage of medical doctors,
despite this, we are soon going to have a shortage of nurses.  I read recently
that Saudi Arabia was offering nurses a salary of R15 000 a month, this was
advertised in our very own newspapers.  So very soon, we will be looking
around and asking: "Where have all the nurses gone".

Mr Chairman, on a different note, there needs to be more information
disseminated to rural women especially, rural women need to know about
osteoporosis, menopause, cervical and breast cancer.  The media has dealt
extensively with Viagra.  This "filling in the gap" can only be done by the media
and Health Department simultaneously.

The conditions at hospitals is another worrying factor.  We hear of hospitals
that do not have bed linen.  I sincerely trust this is not part of it.


  o F "
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  The hon member is left with one minute to wind up.


  o F -
 
MRS O E FORD:
  Thank you.  Patients complain that the food is not edible. 
How many members of this House and their families seek health care at State   R       ""
!
!&&  
institutions?  It sounds like some members of this House are starting to suffer
already.  When the hon Minister Nkosazana Zuma took her brother to
Addington Hospital recently, we certainly heard about the treatment, or should
I rather say the lack of treatment he received, and there was a big enough
hullabaloo about that!

I have been asking the hon Minister every year at budget time when is
HIV/AIDS going to be a notifiable disease?  Last year his reply was: "Soon, we
are working on it". 

On a more positive note, I would like to mention that the Department is
sponsoring the training of home care workers in the Estcourt area in
conjunction with our local Hospice Association.


  o F \

 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  The member's time is now up.  Thank you.


  o F  

 
MRS O E FORD:
  Thank you.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  It is now my pleasure to call upon the hon Minister to
reply to the debate.  The hon the Minister.


  o F N
 
DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):
  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I want to
thank the hon members of this House for their contribution to this very
interesting debate, that it has turned out to be.  I want to thank them for the
suggestions that they have made.  I want to also further suggest that the
members who had specific queries for me to respond to, if they could just give
it to me in writing so that we have got all the details that are necessary for the
investigations.  I will not mention anyone specifically, but there were a number
of requests for certain issues to be investigated.

Secondly, I will not attempt to address each and every issue that has been
raised.  I touch on some of the matters.  I have listened very carefully to
everything that was said, and we have taken notes in order to follow up and
discuss some of these matters.  We will attend to the suggestions that have
been made.   S       ""
!
!&&Ԍ(tm)I will touch on a few matters which I believe we do need to deal with.  One of
the problems is the issue of the ambulance services.  We indeed have a
problem with the ambulance services.  I must also say that the manner in
which our ambulance service is organised, and the level of training is of course
amongst the best in the world.  The fact that we are not able to respond to the
satisfaction of our communities is as a result of the fact that we do not have
adequate funds.  We did point out, last year already, that these services would
be affected to a certain degree, by the fact that we had to reduce the funding
to all the programmes.  All the departments were affected by the problem of
a shortage of funds.  

Then on the one side, we have been able to prove to the Minister of Finance,
as well as the Cabinet, that each and every month the Department of Health
has stayed within the limits of their budgetary allocation.  The praise that we
got from the Minister of Finance and the Cabinet is not matched by the kind of
outcry that is coming from our communities, because maintaining a good
balance is not necessarily equivalent to the kind of service that we would like
to render.

I want to say upfront that there will be problems with the ambulance services,
but also that we have put certain measures in place to try and reduce the
impact thereof.  This is why we have spoken about the use of additional
transport where we believe that people could actually be transported by
vehicles instead of ambulances where there is not a need for an ambulance, but
only for patient transport.  The distinction between the two is better
understood by the people who are in the hospitals.  The public does not
necessarily have the ability to distinguish, between the two because if you are
sick you are sick and you believe that you need an ambulance.  But in some
cases, ordinary transport is available and useful to take people to the hospital
because they do not always need the expertise of paramedics.

The circulars that have been distributed must be understood in the same
manner.  We have been trying to educate people over the radio and the printed
media to make them aware and to try and grade the severity of the problems
that they are able to, and that they do not necessarily have to call for an
ambulance when there are other means of transport available to take them to
the hospitals.   T       ""
!
!&&Ԍ(tm)There is no intention to make our paramedics play God over anybody, but our
paramedics are there to render a service, and help people as much as possible.

The second issue that I want to deal with is the issue of the district surgeons. 
The issue of district surgeons will remain a problem for quite a while.  I would
even bet that if we were to solve the one problem, which I am going to
mention, in as radical a manner as possible, as some of the people are
suggesting in this House they will be the first ones to raise the fact that we
have not considered some of the rights of the people who are involved.

The first problem that we have with the district surgeons is, of course, the
contract.  The contracts that they have are not standardised.  We inherited
them, faulty as they were, and we found that it was not possible to terminate
their services other than to follow a process of renegotiation.  Renegotiate a
contract that allows for people who are not rendering the service in the way
that we would like it to be rendered to be terminated, and that is a problem.  

These problems with the contracts we inherited.  Those contracts must be
reviewed, and to review them you need to negotiate.  Once you have done
that, you will then have everybody on a standardised contract.  If somebody
then comes to complain about this type and that type of behaviour, you might
then be in a position to terminate the contracts.  At the moment it is not
possible to do so.  However, it does not mean that our members cannot present
the cases.  If the case is well presented and we have evidence to prove and
justify the claims of misconduct or a certain action which is unacceptable, we
can assure you that we will be able to terminate those contracts.  There have
been some people who have been very close to having their contracts
terminated.  They simply resign, and because they are engaged in a part(c)time
manner with the government, we cannot do anything more than that.

Members are also allowed to raise a complaint with the Medical and Dental
Council where you believe that the doctor's behaviour has been unethical, and
that is acceptable to everybody.  I will give you the address of the Medical
Council if you might need to do so.

The next issue is the issue of the HIV(c)AZT utilisation.  I will start by dispensing
of the aspect of notification.  The issue of notification has been a very   U       ""
!
!&&  
controversial issue.  There is a very strong school of thought, to the effect that
if you were to notify HIV/AIDS in the manner in which other diseases like TB
etcetera are notified, you might in fact worsen the problem of discrimination
against the members who are HIV positive.  However, we believe that it is
important that there should be some degree of notification that will enable us
to get accurate data so that we can actually begin to formulate a pattern to
what extent HIV is prevalent.  Because as we are speaking now, we can tell
you we have so many people who are HIV positive.  None of us will ever know
which areas they come from.  So the process of even plotting that information
to get the distribution, is important for our planning, it is important for
everything that we have to do.  Therefore, if we want to implement notification
that is specific, identifying the individuals, we might end up driving people
underground, in the sense that people will not want to come out.  They might
be very nervous as to what the effect will be of that notification leaking out
and therefore that they will be identified.

That is why we are encouraging people to first change their attitude, to the
extent that we accept people who are HIV positive, and that the people do not
fear being exposed to HIV positive.  I am sure that if we were to get a backlash
of inappropriately handled notification, it will become problematic to us as we
have seen in some of the cases.  But it does not mean that we must encourage
people to be scared of exposing themselves as being HIV positive.

In relation to research in this Province, we have got several types of research
that is going on.  I will not go into the details, because I do not think that is
what the House wants to hear just now.

But I want to say about AZT and pregnancy.  A study has been conducted in
the US.  The study was to the effect that administering AZT to pregnant
women during the last trimester of their pregnancy, helped to reduce the
infection from mother to baby during pregnancy from 24% to about 8%.  The
groups of people who were involved also had to stop breast feeding.  That is
where the first complication comes in.  The estimation is that one(c)third of the
HIV positive mothers will pass it on to their babies.  We believe that there is
value in those studies, but we have got to look at some of the aspects that
affect us here.
   V        ""
!
!&&  ԌFor example, what happens to a mother who has to stop breast feeding in order
to get that kind of results, and the mother is too poor to buy any other feeding
supplement?  What do you do in such a case?  Can the government take the
responsibility for the payment of the milk supplies for that individual?  We have
embarked on a very aggressive campaign to remove the propaganda and
marketing of the fact that supplement feeding was actually better than breast
feeding.  We actually encourage breast feeding.  Now you need to take a very
careful decision in terms of how are going to you deal with the question of
stopping breast feeding.

The second issue is what happens to the mother who gets AZT treatment
afterwards, when you have actually exposed them to the risk of a possible
resistance to that kind of medication?  Is it ethical?  These are some of the
questions that we are asking.  Is it ethical to say to somebody, you will give
them medication and that they could possibly benefit from it, but after a few
weeks you then terminate it?  Is that ethical?  But if we were to say we want
to treat all the pregnant women who are HIV positive, first you must know who
is HIV positive.  This has got further implications in terms of the fact that you
then have to test every pregnant woman in the Province.  To establish an
infrastructure and to develop a testing capacity for this Province is actually
expensive.  We are not able to afford that yet.  We therefore have to build up
our facilities to an extent where we can begin to do this.

At which stage do you begin to test those pregnant women?  If you test them
now and they were negative during the first trimester, can you guarantee that
they will remain negative until delivery?  Or do you want to do it at the end? 
These are some of the questions that we have got to begin to deal with.  These
are the issues that are being handled by some of the studies which we were
talking about (c) the prenatal transmission, the Petra study is one of the studies
in this Province.  I want to say to those people who are out on a very strong
and very vociferous campaign to pressurise the Minister into supplying AZT, I
think you must give her a chance.  Let us collect the necessary information
from our own researchers in order for us to take an informed decision.

A study which was conducted in Africa was presented to us during a
conference held in Johannesburg just a few weeks ago.  We are waiting, in this
Province, to actually get the formal report on that study.  I would be much   W       ""
!
!&&  
happier if we were guided by the people who are involved in the research rather
than taking the matter too emotionally.  There is no argument about whether
we should or we should not treat people.  The question of cost is very
significant.  I cannot tell you how much the cost of AZT will be.  I can tell you,
though, that if we were to treat everyone who is HIV positive in this Province
alone, our whole budget will be swallowed.  I do not believe that we should
approach the matter in that way.

We welcome the debate, but we also believe that the position we have taken
is an informed decision determined by clinical information, and we are guided
by the results of our research.  We will not move ahead of that.  We will be
guided by our researchers.

A few more issues were raised, and I have noted the comments made by Dr
Mtalane.  I am very grateful to Dr Matelane for the extent to which she got
herself involved in dealing with some of the conflicts that were experienced in
some of the hospitals,  where there was a need for some mediation.  She has
been quite helpful in that sense.  

Insofar as those private ambulances are concerned; firstly we certainly have
saved a lot of money.  Secondly, we came under a lot of political pressure from
this House, and particularly from the Chairperson of this Portfolio Committee,
Dr Mtalane.  We also came under quite a lot of pressure from the community
to bring back those ambulances.  We have maintained that we will only bring
in the ambulances when we have exhausted all the possible avenues of
transporting patients and made sure that there was a need, and we are able to
demonstrate it, then we will actually try and utilise those private ambulances.

The attitude of nurses is an old story.  Most of the people do a lot of good
work.  A few people misbehave and everybody points at the nurses and say:
"Well, the nurses are like this, the doctors are like this, the hospital is like this,
the Department of Health is like that".  We must give those who are doing their
job their due, and we must also raise specific complaints about those who are
not doing their job properly.  Therefore we want to believe that if there are
complaints they must be brought to us so that we can investigate them.

Dr Luthuli, I want to just thank her for the comments.  I do not want to go into   X        ""
!
!&&  
the matter that she raised.  I believe that we have plenty of time to discuss this
matter, particularly as doctors and health professionals who are interested in
that kind of debate.

Hon member Mr Gwala, one of the members responded to your concern about
the issue of corruption.  I must say that to me it is a bit of a strange sense of
logic to say you have to actually fire somebody for the sins of their brothers or
sisters that they have got no connection with.  A misconception must not be
developed in this House that Dr Zuma had anything to do with the project on
nutrition at Jozini.  It was this Province that was running that project.  It had
nothing to do with the National Department, and if you want to raise any issues
about it, you raise it with this Department.  In addition, I want to say to you
contrary to the fact that this is one matter that did receive a lot of publicity, we
are dealing with a lot of other people who have been involved in corruption. 
We have not gone into the genealogy of each one to see who they are related
to in any part of government.

I do not want to comment on what the ANC is doing about HIV/AIDS, because
I do not want to say that the IFP must do this and the National Party must do
this.  If we get a programme on HIV, we must deal with it together.  We do not
differentiate as to which party is involved.


  o F l
 

Mrs Galea, unfortunately I missed some of the details of your questions. 
Unfortunately, I do not see the member here.  We will ask her to give us some
of the details in order to follow up her queries.  

The question of poor training of district surgeons.  I accept that and I will say
that it is a challenge that we will continue dealing with ourselves.

Mr Burrows raised the question of the transfusion services.  I take the point and
also say that yes, they are worth commending for the work they are doing,
serious challenges that they are facing.  We will not necessarily go into the
issues.  I agree that they do need to be mentioned.  The issue of organ donors,
we will have to look into that.

The last aspect is the issue of the public/private sector co(c)operation.  I can only
talk about nursing and the doctors.  To get doctors in public hospitals doing   Y       ""
!
!&&  
sessions in the private sector is a problem.  If you are in the private sector yes,
you can be welcomed to work in co(c)operation with the public sector.  Details
of that we can talk about, but I want to leave it at that.

The hon member Mr Rajbansi, we are quite grateful about the comments, and
I would say that we can discuss further the issue of the impact of the
ayurvedic medicine.  Certainly they are allowed, they are registered properly. 
So if the people want to practice that, it certainly is up to the individuals who
would wish to choose that manner of treatment.

I have dealt with some of the matters that were raised by Mrs Millin.  The only
issue I wish to raise with Mrs Millin is that there are two ways of dealing with
any aspect.  You can go to any hospital here, and you will find something
wrong with the linen, you will find something wrong with the building, you will
find something missing in the medicine, you will find something.  I would say
it is to the credit of the staff of the Health Department in this Province, that
despite those shortages, they still continue and do the kind of work they are
doing.  I would rather that we as members leading this Government and this
Legislature accord those people the kind of commendation and support that
they require to work under those difficult circumstances, rather than sitting
here and think that we can shoot down everybody on the basis of things that
they cannot solve anyway.

If we are talking about the issue of the breakdown in all the hospitals, we were
the first Province to actually implement the hospital facility audit.  We were
able to prove to the whole country, that in order to bring all the hospitals to
normality you needed R8 billion.  This Province needs R2,5 billion, and none of
it is available from this Province.  The R25 million that has been given by the
Minister of Finance is peanuts compared to what we need.  I am therefore
saying that we need to look at how we deal with the matter.

We have taken note of the issue of malaria in Umdloti.  We find it quite
contestable that malaria has spread to Umdloti, but we nevertheless are
prepared to follow that issue up.  In fact, I have given instructions that the
Department must go into the itinerary of those tourists and find out if they
were indeed infected with malaria in Umdloti.  I suspect that they might have
been somewhere further up.  Even during the worst rainy season, it has not   Z       ""
!
!&&  
spread further than Stanger.  In fact, most of the areas that are affected are
around Eshowe and Tugela, and it does not normally cross beyond that point. 
I would be very surprised, but we nevertheless are very, very keen to find out
what the true position is.  The problem that we normally find, and this is a
problem in most of the southern hospitals, somebody can die of malaria
because the doctors in this area do not immediately think of malaria, unless the
patient says: "Oh by the way, I drove past Jozini on my way back from
Nongoma", and that is usually what happens, just because we do not always
keep it in mind.  I cannot always remember where I have been for the past two
or three weeks to tell a doctor when I am suffering of a headache, that the
doctor must remember.  So that is one of the problems.  But we are following
that matter with a lot of interest.

Mrs Downs, yes, we are seriously concerned about the child rape and the child
abuse.  All the cases that you referred to, please give us specific reports and
we will deal with them.  The question of the difficulties under which the district
surgeons, the police, and the health services are working, to prove these cases
is not a small problem.  It is a difficult matter and it does need a lot of cooperation.  I do not want to go further than that.  I am not here to actually
justify anything that might have been considered inappropriate that anybody
would have done, because that is not according to the policy of this
Government and Department.

Baba Mkhwanazi, Ndonga, cha sizwile ubekile angingadluli uyibekile angigcine

  o F 0
 lapho.  [UHLEKO]  [Mr Mkhwanazi, Ndonga, no we have heard you.  You have
made a statement. I will not go beyond what you have said.  You have made
a statement, and there, I should stop].  [LAUGHTER].


  o F 
 

Again, we have also noted the comments of the hon member Mr Madondo. 
The issue of electrification of the clinics is an issue that we have often
discussed with Eskom.  We have now agreed that we are putting aside R9
million between March, April and May in order for Eskom to electrify about 58
clinics which have got lines and which are about one to five kilometres away
from them.  That of course will also benefit a number of schools nearby.  But
if we did not have R9 million, we would have been forced to wait for no less
than three years.  In addition, those areas where the lines are more than five
kilometres away, it is a big problem because the expense involved in   [       ""
!
!&&  
electrifying those is going to be too exorbitant.  We will rather wait until the
electric lines are closer, then we will spend your money more fruitfully.

The hon member Mr Rehman, let us talk about the specific details of the
problems you are experiencing in Newcastle.  We are in a process of transition. 
We will work together.  You discover the problems, we will try and find the
solutions.  Slowly the process will move forward.  But I want to challenge you
on the aspect of politicising the rationalisation.  Now maybe we should go to
Newcastle and fight that problem, because according to my own information,
the politicisation of the rationalisation of the two hospitals has been placed at
the doorstep of this particular hon member.


  o F 

 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F \

 
DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):
  And we can talk about it.  Now let me
say, let us not take this matter further, because we need everybody's support. 
It is not a party political partisan issue, it is a matter of the community having
to get the best service.  On that basis, I would appeal for all the support that
we can get.  If we want to try and politicise it, not only is this Department of
Health going to lose, but the whole community is going to lose.  I would
suggest that in fact I will take the view that we do not politicise it, but I am
saying whilst I heed your advice, can you take the same advice and let all of
us take that advice.  [LAUGHTER]

Hon member Mr Matthee raised specific issues about the eye clinic.  I would
ask him to give us the details and we will follow the matter up.

Hon member Mr Dlamini, thank you very much for all your comments.  I do not
want to move further on that particular issue.  As I have said, I have noted with
lots of interest the comments of Mrs Ford, the parts that I could hear
ultimately.  It is most unfortunate for any woman to have to give birth on a
pavement.  I do not believe that it helps anyone, and it is not to the credit of
anyone.  However, I think that we must also acknowledge some of the
problems that we are experiencing at this stage, and not investigate it case by
case.  I do not want to comment on the press reports, because the press will
report the matters as they are presented to them.  Whether in fact that what
happened in reality is another matter, but between me and you, we can sit   \       ""
!
!&&  
down and look at those issues.

The shortage of nurses is another issue.  There is no way we can compete with
Saudi Arabia and Oman and all those other places.  They have got lots of
money.  There is no way we can actually compete with them.  We only plead
and hope that our nursing staff and our doctors will find it possible within their
hearts to put in more for this country rather than actually comparing us with
the Arab world, because there is no way we can compete with them.  I can
only assure you, Mr Chairman, that none of those displays have been removed
from the hospitals as such.  I think that that might be reassuring, but
nevertheless we believe that this has been placed here with a particular
message.

Any member of the public is entitled to raise a complaint about the treatment
their brothers or sisters or relatives are getting or not getting, and that is what
this Department is here to do.  I do not think that you should single out any
particular individual.  If any of the members feel that somebody has not been
fairly treated in the hospital, let us know about that.  Whether you are a
Minister of Health or a member of Parliament or a member of whatever
Legislature, it does not matter.  As a member of the public you are entitled to
that, and I do not want to actually say that there is anything unusual about Dr
Zuma having raised the matter.  As a matter of fact, the manner in which the
matter was raised with me, did not relate to specifics.  It was not a complaint
about her brother not having been treated, her complaint was why we had a
situation where there were so many patients and one doctor.  That is the
matter we are looking into.  We have dealt with the same complaints which we
have received from other hospitals.  At Edendale, we have actually had to send
people to go and sit there and count the number of patients.  We counted
them, we counted the pensioners.  It was not because somebody's relative had
complained but members of the public who were concerned and complained. 
On that basis, even Mrs Ford, if you have any particular complaints, we would
invite you to write a letter to us and we will try and solve the problem.

Mr Chairman, I want to thank the members of this House for making this
debate very interesting, and I want to say to you, that the co(c)operation that we
have had from all the members of this House, and Cabinet, and all the members
of the Portfolio Committee have been very helpful in supporting our
Department, and we shall always value that support.  Thank you very much.


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  Hear! Hear!


  o F 
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Thank you, Mr Minister.  That brings us to the end of
vote 7.  I will therefore call upon the Sergeant(c)at(c)Arms to invite the Speaker
back into the House.  Thank you.


  o F 

 
DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):
  Mr Chairman, whilst we wait for the
Speaker to be brought into the House, can I just invite the hon members to a
cocktail party, next door.


  o F 

 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS


  o F \

 
DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):
  We have got the invitations on the
tables.  We would be very pleased if the members could oblige.  Thank you.


  o F 
 
 
THE BUSINESS OF THE COMMITTEE SUSPENDED

  o F 
 |
 THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE RESUMED AT 17:51
ă


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  I will ask the Chairperson to make a report.  Thank you.


  o F l
 
THE CHAIRPERSON:
  Mr Speaker, the Committee of Supply has met and it has
not completed its work.  Leave is therefore sought to sit again.  Thank you.


  o F 
 
THE SPEAKER:
  Leave is granted.  Hon member Mr Cele.


  o F 
 
MR B H CELE:
  Point of order, Mr Speaker.  That member is cutting his nails
and it is irritating us.  That member Mr Ntombela.  If you could just stop it
please.  


  o F ^
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER


  o F "
 


MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip): 
 I warn Mr Bheki Cele, he must not point a finger
at me, "that this man".  I am Mr Ntombela but professional.  


  o F 
 
HON MEMBERS:
  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER   ^        ""
!
!&&  Ԍ
  o F   
 (tm)
THE SPEAKER:
  Okay, let us continue.  We have come to the end of our
session today.  I do not know, before I will close, whether the Minister has any
announcements to make.  Hon Inkosi Ngubane.


  o F 
 
INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and

  o F j
 Minister of Safety and Security):
  Mr Speaker, I have got no announcements. 
Thank you, sir.


  o F 

 
THE SPEAKER:
  Thank you.  The House adjourns till 9 o'clock tomorrow.


  o F 
 q

HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 17:53 UNTIL


ON FRIDAY, 26 MARCH 1999

TRANSLATION: Let me say thank you, Mr Speaker.  I think I should firstly
apologise on behalf of Philip Powell.  There is an urgent meeting regarding
elections at the IEC in Durban.  If it were not for that he would be here.  No one should assume that he has run away because of this motion directed at
him.  He has not run away.

I think, Mr Speaker, we have heard the noise emanating from the presenter of
this motion, Bheki Cele.  We can definitely hear him speaking.  He is shouting. 
I think even the hills of Pomeroy can hear as he is shouting.  

It is true that this weekend, Mr Speaker and your hon House, was Human
Rights Day, Human Rights Week for the Nation.  It is also true, even for those
who abuse other people, it is their right. 

It was Human Rights Week for them too, so that they can succeed in defiling
other people, as my brother Bheki Cele over there is doing.  It is his right to
attack Mr Powell about something that is not even real.

Mr Speaker, firstly, I condemn the action of the police and soldiers who went
out on a campaign of harassing people.  As an adult, I would never accept that
maybe police would go out and harass people at Pomeroy.  

I also condemn the killing of people such as Van Zyl, the one who was killed

while going to sell milk.  I condemn that.  But I think I should say this, Mr
Speaker, what baffles me a great deal about this matter is that, as my
colleague, Bheki Cele speaks, he has full knowledge in his mind about the
length of time that himself, myself and the sub Committee on Safety and
Security have been going to Msinga to discuss the harassment of people by the
police and soldiers.  

They have been harassed, people who are being killed, their houses destroyed,
their money taken away by the soldiers and police who are not from that area. 
That is true, and my brother Bheki Cele knows that.

What baffles me is, if what my brother Bheki Cele here is saying is true, why
is it that he, as Chairman of the Committee on Safety and Security, does not
tell the Committee to go to Msinga and examine the sickness that is said to be
caused by police and soldiers there.  

Why did he take it and bring it to Parliament for discussion?  Isn't the objective
of that to sell the slandering of Mr Powell?  Is it not a fact that Mr Bheki and
his conspirators want to slander the IFP organisation?  

I heard Bheki Cele speaking.  I am greatly disappointed that he takes Philip
Powell's duty as a member of Parliament this way.  It is his duty to go
wherever anyone has died, as Bheki Cele also goes.  Bheki Cele will remember
that when people were killed at Izingolweni, he went there without contacting
the hon Minister Inkosi Ngubane, whose duty it is to know when people die in
an area.  He went there without contacting him.  I do not know whether there
is a policy that Philip Powell, as a member of Parliament, should not go when
a white person, or a black person is killed in Pomeroy.  Should he not go there?

Mr Speaker and your hon House, let me state that Philip Powell went there in
his capacity that permits him to go where people have been killed, and it is his
duty to go and create peace in that area.  Let me state, Mr Speaker and your
hon House, that the people of Pomeroy ...

The people of Pomeroy, the Inkosi of Pomeroy and the Induna of Pomeroy,
need this sub Committee to go there.  I ask that when we leave this House, we
should decide on the date this week on which we, the Committee, will go 
there, so that the truth can come out about what is being said about Philip
Powell.  To see whether that will come from the people there, because Philip
Powell is innocent in this matter.  But this is just the opportunity that the
African National Congress wants to use to slander Philip Powell.  

I plead with you, Magaya, that when we leave here, we have to contact the
Inkosi of that area, its Induna and the community that was harassed, so that
they can say which role Philip Powell played when he was there.  He did not
even get close to the area where that happened.  I am pleased.  T/E


[Thank you very much]

TRANSLATION: Mr Speaker and the hon House, I would not say I am pleased
for getting the opportunity to speak if I am to speak about such a matter.  But then, I wish to say, hon Council, that the issue we are discussing is an issue about my home area of Msinga.  The discussion on this matter is a discussion about the death of people.  Now, it is a problem that when we discuss such an issue, our personal politics come into it because at the end the issue becomes distorted and we are unable to address it in an appropriate manner.  

It raises a number of questions we pose to one another.  Yes, it is true, Mr Powell is an IFP member, but I do not believe that when we discuss the issue of his actions we should say what he does is done by the IFP.   Wait, do not stop me yet.  You see, Magaya was present when the hon madam was speaking, but he would not say that just because you were there, it was the ANC expressing itself.  When she said the killing of whites ...You accept that?  Are you telling the truth?  Let us set that aside, there would be time for it.  Here, the issue being discussed is the issue that Councillor Mkhize was complaining about as members of the Portfolio Committee on Security here in KwaZulu Natal have stated.  It is true, if we can talk about the people of Msinga who have been killed by police, it is a disgrace. Cele was not even born when this thing started and people were dying.  He was born and he is now grey.  It continues.  Before, we used to say it was because of the Boer Government. It saddens us a great deal today because it is our Government and yet, thisthing still happens.  As the Portfolio Committee went to Msinga, it went there a number of times. Madondo and I are the two people here from Msinga, but up to today, the Portfolio Committee has never asked us for help by sitting down with it and explaining what is taking place there.  I believe that the people of Msinga have been patient enough. What Councillor Mkhize was saying should not have come as a shock, although he was speaking angrily.  I saw Mkhize and asked him what he was saying. He explained to me that when he spoke to the reporter, he spoke angrily, because the people of Msinga have done everything to report to the government about the things that are taking place, taking place in an extremely disgraceful way.
In 1995 Muntu Onotshwala Zulu's house was attacked over there at Keats
Drift.  His two boys were shot and killed by soldiers.  He ran all the way to the police.  He returned with the police and the soldiers took him from the police, trampled on him and took him to hospital.  The issue is in court and up until today it is unclear what the case means.
Oh, I am confused, Speaker, because it was known that we were to discuss
the issue of Msinga.  Now when I was given six minutes, were you all aiming to be the ones to speak?  I cannot oppose, but I would like it to be recorded that you did not permit me to speak.  I did not disclose a lot of what I was going to help you with because in other areas, you go astray.  What should I do, Speaker?  [LAUGHTER]  T/E

[nails to grab and hold these two
things as well as others that are going astray.  Let us ignore those who try to interrupt or disturb us while we talk.  I do not know from where abouts in Africa such people, rude people come from]

TRANSLATION ;I am very grateful that when a woman stands up, men react. 
It shows that even now, men are still scared of women.Chairperson, thank you.  I will talk, in particular, about people in rural areas and
people on farms.  But, I will start by talking about people in rural areas as my sister, across there, reminds me. We hear that Xoshindlala is accomplishing its stated functions. It plants, tills the land, sews and does everything else that is suppose to be happening. We are also very grateful to the Minister in the Department of Health for
assisting and making a contribution.  There were machines that were given to some people.  The Department of Health's major aim is to ensure that people develop, so that they can be self-sufficient, particularly women because they are the ones who stay at home, who are poor and who cannot find work. Mr Chairperson, thank you very much.  In this land of Mthaniya we are enveloped by many problems, particularly on farms.  Since 1994, we have been talking about the issue of farms.  People in this House speak at length.  They even go down on their knees speaking.  But, when you go to their farms, you find that they enslave black people.There are people who have never realised the power of their vote. They are so oppressed, its as though they never voted.  As we speak about people on farms saying they should plant and do work on the farm, that is not happening. Instead, they are being evicted and told to leave their land.  And we do not know where they are expected to go because this land is the only land that black people have.  When you chase us away from here, we do not know to which country you expect us to go.  We will die on this land of Phunga and Mageba.  We will not take aeroplanes and go to other countries.  We will die here.

Mr Chairperson, I am very grateful.  But, there is a problem.  This morning, I received information that there is a man...  We, as Zulus, have people who uphold their customs and traditions.  I am talking about the area of Majuba, the area of Ngogo.

At Ngogo people are practically on Robben Island.  Over there, it is as if people are in prison because even when they brew Zulu beer, their bosses spill it. They take their meat and throw it on the floor and it is covered in dirt. No one can dare deny this because I will mention the name of the man at whose house this happened.  They are in prison.  There is a man who cannot even go and fetch water.  They have fenced him in because he is not permitted on that farm. He is fenced in, he is in prison. The Chairperson of Agriculture should visit that area.  It is astonishingly repressed.  Now, I wish to say that on those farms, a man had 30 cattle and a Boer took five of them in order to sell them because that man had to pay for grass.  The boss's grass cost R3000.  Where was this man expected to get R3000 because he was already unemployed.  The boss told him to retire because he was old.

What I wish to ask those who have farms is whether they concur  with those laws because people say that when they call them in, they refuse to go. Mr Nel do not look at me because some of what I am saying involves you. I am saying, right now what is troubling us is that people on farms are not comfortable.  Yet, in here we speak so loudly and vehemently, but people on farms have not attained freedom.  When will they be free. We are grateful that when we speak to our Minister, he is able to listen and hear what people want.  We are grateful.  We wish that the Minister can continue doing so because he is in a position where he has to listen to people's opinions on what their needs are.
Thank you Chairperson.  I support the budget.  T/E

TRANSLATION:  
Let me say thank you, Chairperson and your hon House, I am
speaking about the Department of Agriculture, which is an important
Department, and I think that everyone in this House knows just how important this Department is, because even the food we eat comes from this Department.

Firstly, let me say thank you, Chairperson, let me thank the hon Minister of this Department, for ever so skilfully conducting Agriculture in this Province of KwaZuluNatal.  

Today, let me thank the Women's Brigade, particularly women's organisations, which includes the leader of the Organisation of Women, who today is now a Minister, for following the leadership of the hon Minister Singh.  They have made every attempt to ensure that the community is selfsufficient, so that it does not always look to the Government to feed it.I know, Chairperson, that the economic situation in this country seems very weak. At a time when the community is unemployed, it is the time when it needs to follow the slogan expressed by the Prince of KwaPhindangene, saying
that the community should teach itself to use its own strength and muscles and not rely on handouts all the time.

We know that the hon Minister is determined to assist the poor community. What is bad is that the community is now infested with a lot of crime.  Not all of it, but a large part of the community thinks that if you plant mealies, they too are part of benefitting from that mealies.  If you plant any other type of crop, the community thinks that they are part of it.  Hon Chairperson, that is where the community becomes reluctant to work in order to be selfsufficient,because from that small land one can cultivate, there are people who are just there to become part of your family when it becomes time to eat, and yet, they are not family while you work. Speaker, they do not stop by stealing what is sown in the garden, but even men who are cattle farmers today have no stock, because of these criminals. Sheep are prey to these criminals.  They celebrate Christmas eating free food. Let me plead at this point with the hon Nxamalala, that he should please understand that I am not trying to insult them, but as an old man I am trying to say that if you administer an enema with medicine to someone, at some point you have to draw it out so that it does not remain within that person.  T/E

[Like Powell.  Tell the police to reveal what enema they
administered to Powell].

TRANSLATION:  
You see, Chairperson, while people were being encouraged to
vote in 1994, they were told that they would get free housing, free food, they would no longer be poor, they would no longer have to work. Now, that poison, Chairperson, and your hon House, is still with the public. I plead with the hon Mr Ndebele to assist in eradicating this poison from the people.  They should be told that you were joking when you said everything would be free. Let us all go back and work so that there would be no regrets.I know that as I am speaking, I am touching a nerve with some people, that is why they are mumbling. There is a time, Chairperson, when we have to speak.I am about to conclude, sir. In this minute you have given me let me end by saying the hon Minister started something amazing called Xoshindlala. Today,women's organisations have sewing machines.  My sister Happy here has proof of that. This Minister gave women's organisations sewing machines. They are sewing. Now they are sewing school uniforms and everything else.  I am saying, sir,
Minister Singh continues developing this country. I am asking, Mr Chairperson of the African National Congress, that it is time to
tell people that it was a joke, it did not mean it should continue that way. I am pleased.

TRANSLATION: But, then Chairperson, the Minister is talking about work,
work that has to be done, and the work, which is being done on the land. 
Where is that land.  There is no land Mr Minister.  There is very little land. Many people in this country do not have land. You are talking about this bit of available land.  Many people do not have land. 
We attained political freedom.  But there is still no land. When you speak about all this, the majority of African people, who were previously oppressed - the real owners of the land given to them by God, do not have land. God did not make a mistake by placing us on this land, which he bestowed on us. Even if there is talk of returning land....we talked and failed at the Trade Centre to rectify the issue of land.  That is why they are talking about 13%,13% of the remainder of the land that was divided amongst us in 1913. Dating back to 1652, where is that land? All the land should be returned so that we can have discussions about it and allocate it appropriately. And re-allocation of land does not mean what is currently taking place where the land is being bought.  The Government, with scarce resources, has to go and buy land from people who cannot even produce a single receipt to show that they bought the land. There is a friend of mine...Precisely.  We are not saying this land should be taken by force from farmers.But, we are saying let us discuss the issue properly.  We are opposed to the thugs who are killing farmers.  We in the PAC are saying they should be arrested and punished accordingly.  Those in the PAC know what we mean when we say thugs should be punished.  Therefore, I support this budget, although the Minister is working under tough conditions out there. Africans do not have land, Amakhosi no longer have land.  The land was supposed to be returned appropriately.  We will continue saying that land should be returned until it is returned.  We will continue to emphasise that land
should be returned for proper allocation to everyone, particularly the land...  T/E

TRANSLATION:  Thank you Chairperson.  Firstly, Chairperson, I am pleased to get such an important opportunity to add my voice in this hon House. 
Chairperson, I can say that what is happening in this country that I love and that is loved by everyone else who love peace, is disheartening. It is disheartening to see that the country is going up in flames.  Yet, there are people who are suppose to protect it, but as one hears, there is no progress.With this I mean that farmers in South Africa are being killed. But, none of the people engaged in such heinous acts are seen being arrested.  This thing is perceived by some as a joke. If the farmers that are being treated in this manner can take a serious decision and turn their backs on this country, farming will stop. The potential and strength of the citizens of this country will
end because without the produce that gives livelihood, there will be death, and it will not be caused by weapons.  There will be absolutely no meat.I am warning the offenders who are harassing other citizens due to the lack of the rule of law that currently exists.  There are people in high positions who are suppose to demonstrate their leadership to those in lower positions, however, they are the ones who are corrupt.  When they deceive the Government through corruption, they say that the death penalty is not necessary, so that the Government can abolish the toughest form of punishment. The corrupt people are happy because the Government abolished the death penalty.  When the Government uses the death penalty, they say it is violating human rights.  But, they do not take into account the rights of those who have been victimised and killed, those who have been raped and violated in all sorts of ways.  I am certain, Chairperson, that this country would by now be on the
right track if we went according to the speeches about human rights.  T/E

TRANSLATION: 
For those who did not understand when I started, let me say
thank you to the hon Mr Singh for his presentation to us here.  Firstly, let me thank you hon Minister for your prompt response whenever the Portfolio Committee calls on you, as my brother Mohlomi stated. Even in our briefings here, as a Portfolio Committee, there has been co-operation.  That is a good way of working closely together.
I am saying, when you were appointed to this Department, they appointed the right person who understands agriculture.  I am saying, Chairperson, the soil is something of extreme importance in our lives.  Without the soil, we will be unable to live as human beings.
We use the soil a lot, so as to ensure our livelihood.  We have just returned from having lunch.  All that we ate emanated from the soil, as the hon member was advising us here.  Therefore, we must use the soil appropriately, no matter how little.  I am saying this with the knowledge, as previous speakers have stated, that there is no land for our use.  But, that does not mean we should not utilise whatever little land we have.

The country is not in a good position.  There are no jobs.  If there are no jobs and when owners of factories have left, there is nothing else that people can do to survive, except using their hands, tilling the land and sewing, as I saw some women out there sewing remarkable and fashionable clothes.Therefore, I am saying, I support what you said in your speech, encouraging women at home to plant gardens.  That provides good work.  There are some people who work planting gardens to an extent that they no longer think of an employer.  In fact, they themselves are now employers.  Therefore, let me congratulate you hon Sir.I wish to delve into the issue of the death of farmers.  I do not understand.  I am not happy because when you talk of the death of farmers, you are talking of the death of our country's economy.  Those of us who do not know how to farm, have to learn form farmers.

I do not agree with what my brother Mohlomi, over there, said.  He said that maybe one of the reasons farmers are dying is that people cannot find land when they want to bury their dead. I am saying, there are ways we can sit down and have discussions with farmers regarding the fact that we were born here, yet we do not have places to bury our dead. The killing of farmers does not solve the problem at all.  I think there is no one in this House who applauds the killing of farmers.  Regarding land as the hon member has stated, since 1995 to date, the Government is suppose to release that land to us. We will never accept this.  We will fight with all our might for the return of our land which was taken away from us.  Without land, we can do nothing.  Therefore, we, Amakhosi, are part of the people.  We are the
owners of this land.  We can announce to all Amakhosi, throughout
KwaZulu-Natal, that they should rise and peacefully demand that the land that was taken from them should be returned.
 As we have heard, at Msinga there are 2500 people who are stranded because of conflicts that are taking place there.  Therefore, in conclusion, I am saying we are grateful to the Netherlands if it is going to contribute...  T/E

["Honour your father and your mother so that your days on earth can be longer"].

TRANSLATION: dabezitha, I am very grateful that in your Department you
evaluate and organise because you are a Zulu person who understands that an elderly person should be respected. Mr Chairperson, Sir, there were people who went right out of their way telling the youth to come out from everywhere and make the country ungovernable.  But, when it came to the list, those people excluded the youth.And Ndabezitha, the youth that were performing registration in your Department
were well groomed.  You had a programme of selecting young people who had cared highly for older people. When a young person dealt with someone, you could see that he or she took that person as his or her own parent.  We were very grateful for that Mageba. We wish you could go out and in the same way, teach other departments.  T/E

[the Prince and his staff had to strengthen his hand].

[hold ups, and the mugging of people on their way to pay points]

TRANSLATION:
A motion we left when there was a request from Mrs Cronje
for an addition or an amendment.  The hon Mr Burrows rose to say that we could not discuss this matter because it was not in writing.
Therefore, there is indication that it has been written down.  Therefore, when I look at what is written, it is clear that there has been a drastic change in the motion.  In that case, I wish to hear the opinions of each party before I take a decision.  According to section 104(g).  T/E

[When an adult male dog passes by the puppies bark].

TRANSLATION
Chairperson, we were the ones toyi toyi at Ulundi, saying "
Hey Botha, release Mandela."  Not to mention, Chairperson, that boys of the age of that young man across there, would jump so high, wishing that our brothers would return from exile.  T/E

["Gatsha must be executed"]

[the Prince of Kwa-Phindangene]

[Your Department should work, Msholozi, to ensure that Africans becomeindustrialists and not just workers.  Thank you Mr Speaker].

[We thank the hon member].

TRANSLATION:  
You see in 1984 and beyond, towards 1985/86, it was as
though there was going to be total destruction in this Province of
KwaZulu-Natal.  Things were in flames.  People who had anything lost it.Those who had nothing did not get a chance to acquire anything.
But we are grateful that the Department, these days, is saying we are not only going to take care of ourselves and our neighbours, but it is looking at how small businesses who lost out will benefit.Today we are discussing how they will benefit.  Since we started in 1999, hon members, we began with our election campaigns.  I know that what we say will not exactly match our actions.  But, I wish to say that there is something contrary to the economy and its growth and that is violence.  I will not conclude my speech without saying that if we truly love our country and our Province...  T/E

[Hon member,there are two minutes left].

TRANSLATION
Oh! We will all go out and campaign peacefully because by so
doing, we will be demonstrating our objective for economic growth.  Growth will benefit our people. All those who will campaign peacefully will be demonstrating love for the people and for a peaceful nation that they too are a part of.  That will be the time when people will see, when they will listen, when they will think and ultimately speak.
Lastly, Chairperson, let me say thank you because in this last minute, I have concluded my speech.  T/E

[We thank the hon member.  In the end,we will ask the Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism to respond to speeches that have been made in this House].

TRANSLATION:  
I wish to say that I accepted the placement of what is before
you, at the request of the Department of Health, so that members can
understand that AIDS can also be in this very House.  Therefore, it is important for us to remind ourselves of these signs.  I am pleased.  T/E

[The multi-winged Ukhozi is superior].

TRANSLATION: 
Hon Minister, the community is complaining about the level
of treatment they receive from government hospitals.  But, the community is also saying that there are nurses who are good. One is surprised.  I am not sure, hon Minister, whether it would work to
renovate and improve hospitals with the hope that the community will go to those government hospitals.We plead that nurses should have mercy and love for patients. In other words,they should respect the rights of patients, and respect human dignity.I will not ask, hon Minister, that they be re-trained because the very same nurses, who are in government hospitals, when they go to private hospitals,they change their ways.
They remember everything they were taught regarding the manner in which nurses should conduct themselve and how patients should be treated.Why? It is because private hospitals do not tolerate nonsense.  Why is the Government accepting that?  T/E

[Thank you, Chairperson].

[Let me proceed.  Mr Chairperson, the issue of AIDS.  "Oh! My people], this is a very serious matter.  

TRANSLATION: 
This is a lion, Chairperson and Dr Khabazela, sitting at the
threshold of life.  It is just waiting to crush, eat and discard anything that comes near it.Now, how are we going to survive.  How are our children who are still growing up going to survive.  People, let us be honest, we are all adults here.  T/E

TRANSLATION: 
God gave us the gift of enjoying life, which He did not give
animals.  Now we are no longer going to live, we will no longer have children because when children are born, they are crushed by the lion sitting at the threshold. Le us all work together my people.  Let us unite.  Dr Mkhize should ensure that traditional healers and doctors practising western medicine get together to cure this. All these other things you are giving us, saying that in the meantime we prevent it, will not work at the end of the day. What is necessary is something that will control the lion sitting on the threshold of life. Thank you.  T/E

[There was no food.Old as I am, I have never eaten at school. This is the first time. This thing was introduced by the ANC.  They are eating at Msinga].

TRANSLATION 
We heard Mr Mphephethwa, over there, saying that moving
too fast is not good.  Another problem we are detecting is that statistics state that there are too many women with AIDS.  Maybe it is because we still have these unnecessary men who are said to be popular with women and therefore have many sweethearts.  T/E



